Do Catholics Worship The Saints?

[dairygirl4u2c]

please, let me speak for both sides of where the debate will go:

[quote]anti-Catholic person: You worship the saints and their images.

Catholic: No we pray to saints to intercede for us, to pray for us. Kind of like asking our friends here on earth to pray for us.

anti-Catholic person: So, then why do you worship the saints and their images?

Catholic: Oh, brother.[/quote]

[Innocent]

Because no man had seen the face of God before Christ, and so Christ is, in a way, the image of God.

Thus the veneration and worship given to images is actually given to God, just as the veneration of Jesus is the veneration of God and the respect given to ikons and paintings is actually given to the Saints, which is an expression of our awe of the Grace of God, who is the perfect Saint, which is able to raise up man to great heights of sanctity. The scriptures record several instances of men giving great respect to angelic beings and to other men who have progressed in the path of sanctity and are very close to God.

A point of interest is that the word worship is derived from the old Anglian/Saxon (don't remember exactly which origin now) word [i]weorthscipe[/i], which is used to refer to respect, esteem or honour, given to one worthy of them, the recipient not limited to God. So, to say that Catholics and the Oriental Orthodox "worship saints" would be technically correct, just as it would be to say that a good son worships his father, though, since the meaning of English words change with time, it would be confusing to use the word worship in this sense today.

It might appear to be complex when put down in words, but I think these concepts are interiorised by Catholics and understood with simplicity if they are given good catechesis from a young age.

Did I get that right?

Edited September 21, 2007 by Innocent

[Apotheoun]

I give to the saints the worship of veneration (i.e., [i]proskynesis[/i] / [i]dulia[/i]), but to God alone do I give the worship of adoration (i.e., [i]latria[/i]).

[adt6247]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1389700' date='Sep 21 2007, 06:28 AM']I give to the saints the worship of veneration (i.e., [i]proskynesis[/i] / [i]dulia[/i]), but to God alone do I give the worship of adoration (i.e., [i]latria[/i]).[/quote]
Exactly. 100-200 years ago, the word "worship" in English implied first veneration and honor. That's why judges in England are referred to as "Your Worship" -- not because people were bowing down and "worshiping" (adoration, sacrifice, [i]latria[/i]) them, it is a title of respect for their knowledge, experience, age, and wisdom.

Because of the puritan/protestant understanding of the word "worship", it was changed to "Your Honor" in the states.

Very many protestant accusations are based on the misunderstanding of words that drifted in meaning. The word "pray" means to ask. Hence, "pray tell". So of course we can pray to the saints; they in turn can pray to God for us in a more perfect way than we can ourselves, as they are in heaven adoring the beatific vision.

[LouisvilleFan]

Of course we do. Don't ya'll know that Mary and all the saints are about to be declared as persons of God? It'll be called the Googlinity. While it'll be nice to finally admit that we really do worship all these people we pray to, the Nicene Creed is gonna take, like, 30 minutes to recite.

Who says that Google's indexing, documenting, and selling of advertising space on every part of our lives is a bad thing?

[beatty07]

oh, brother indeed.

yep, that's exactly the conversation I've had about a zillion times. I don't get it.

"Hey Chuck, is that a poster of A-Rod on your wall?"
"yep. He da man."
"Didn't you write him some fan letters a while back?"
"yep. got a form letter and a baseball card back."
"IDOLATOR! APOSTATE!"
"huh? settle down dude."
"YOU ARE WORSHIPPING A-ROD!"
"no, really, I'm not."
"but I've SEEN you bow down to the poster!"
"dude, I was just tying my shoe."
"Silence, idolator! Accept Jesus Christ!"
"I thought I did...well, I'm always converting..."
"THAT'S BECAUSE YOU THINK YOUR WORKS WILL SAVE YOU!!"
"wait, what were we talking about?"

[photosynthesis]

We're all baptized "Priest, Prophet and King." All Christians are, in a certain way, priests. A priest is a person who intercedes on behalf of others before God. Ordained priests have a specific vocation to intercede on behalf of the whole Church through offering the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, anointing the sick, absolving penitents of their sins, etc. However, all of us can intercede for others by offering up our prayers, joys and sacrifices to God for them.

St. Therese always said that she wanted to be a priest. Heterodox Catholics often quote her out of context, saying that if the Church allowed "Womyn Priests," then the holy Saint would have embraced that vocation. She understood her priesthood as interceding for souls through offering her life to Our Lord in the cloister and suffering so much for others. Why would that stop at the moment of her death?

[beatty07]

I think the reply would be that Therese' work can't continue because according to a novel, narrow, and presumed-infallible interpretation of 1 Thess 4:13-17, she is 'asleep in Christ' and can't hear you.

[pippo buono]

i have a non-denominational friend that i would often have friendly debates with. One time after class we got on the topic to praying to the Saints. Once i made my final point after about an hour of discussion, he said, "... You know, that makes sense." i felt like this:

Edited September 21, 2007 by pippo buono

[ckozlowski]

[quote name='pippo buono' post='1390073' date='Sep 21 2007, 03:48 PM']i have a non-denominational friend that i would often have friendly debates with. One time after class we got on the topic to praying to the Saints. Once i made my final point after about an hour of discussion, he said, "... You know, that makes sense." i felt like this: [/quote]

pippo, could you tell me what you told your friend??

i need to understand this concept.

thanks

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1389724' date='Sep 21 2007, 06:35 AM']Of course we do. Don't ya'll know that Mary and all the saints are about to be declared as persons of God? It'll be called the Googlinity. While it'll be nice to finally admit that we really do worship all these people we pray to, the Nicene Creed is gonna take, like, 30 minutes to recite.

Who says that Google's indexing, documenting, and selling of advertising space on every part of our lives is a bad thing?[/quote]
The saints [i]are[/i] divinized, for they have become Gods by grace, and that is why St. Athanasios said that, "God became man, so that man might become God."

That said, the doctrine of [i]Theosis[/i] does not mean that there are more persons added to the Godhead, but the saints -- by participating in the divine energy -- truly become by grace what Christ is by nature, i.e., the saints become sons of God in the only-begotten Son of God.

[ckozlowski]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1390098' date='Sep 21 2007, 04:41 PM']The saints [i]are[/i] divinized, for they have become Gods by grace, and that is why St. Athanasios said that, "God became man, so that man might become God."

That said, the doctrine of [i]Theosis[/i] does not mean that there are more persons added to the Godhead, but the saints -- by participating in the divine energy -- truly become by grace what Christ is by nature, i.e., the saints become sons of God in the only-begotten Son of God.[/quote]

thanks a lot

[Laudate_Dominum]

What Apotheoun said.

For any Roman Catholics who don't understand this doctrine I would suggest the pertinent paragraphs in the catechism. If this is not enough I might recommend "[i]Christ, the Life of the Soul[/i]" by Blessed Dom Marmion (who is being considered as a doctor of the Church I might add).

Peace.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' post='1390107' date='Sep 21 2007, 04:53 PM']What Apotheoun said.

For any Roman Catholics who don't understand this doctrine I would suggest the pertinent paragraphs in the catechism. If this is not enough I might recommend "[i]Christ, the Life of the Soul[/i]" by Blessed Dom Marmion (who is being considered as a doctor of the Church I might add).

Peace.[/quote]
I've heard that the title that has been thrown around for Blessed Columba Marmion is "The Doctor of Divine Adoption."

[dairygirl4u2c]

that was a laudable response