Imprimatur And Nihil Obstat

[M.SIGGA]

Since it's been said by a few people that these two forms of ecclesiatical aproval are no longer totally reliable for determining what is genuinely Christian and what is secular or dangerous to faith, is there any substancial evidence to prove this? What are some titles, essays, or literature that recieved approval that shouldn't have? I'm asking because I went to the Catholic Bookstore this weekend to buy a CD and I asked a Daughter of St. Paul if this was true and she looked a little turned off.

[Dave]

"Catholicism" by Richard P. McBrien once had an imprimatur and a nihil obstat, but they were later removed.

[jasJis]

They never were "totally reliable" as that would require an infallible statement.

"The Nihil obstat and Imprimatur are a declaration that a book or pamphlet is considered to be free from doctrinal or moral error. It is not implied that those who have granted the Nihil obstat and Imprimatur agree with the contents, opinions, or statements expressed."

[M.SIGGA]

Thanks Dave, this is like Galileo who recieved the Imprimatur, but lost it later on. Are there any others that still have the ecclesiatical approval that do contain moral and/or doctrine error? If not what is the source of the argument that the Impr. and N.Ob. shouldn't be consulted?

[PhatPhred]

Catholic Culture, formerly PetersNet (this is an HTML link!!!) seems to have no problem with trashing Catholic Update (this is an HTML link!!!) even though it has an Imprimatur. They (Catholic Culture) also don't seem to like anything written by Fr. Raymond Brown, who was so well respected that he was allowed to provide his own Nihil Obstat.

Personally, this make me doubt Catholic Culture more than it makes me doubt Catholic Update and Fr. Brown.

Edited February 10, 2004 by PhatPhred

[Aloysius]

did you look at what it was "bashing"?

it is a site critique, and it has the right, no the DUTY to point out such things... those articals attempt to undermine Catholic teaching about the Holy Mass and other stuff... i have no problem with a warning that it must be sifted through.

[Aloysius]

Fr. Richard Sparks: dissenter from Humanae Vitae, author of the explicit sex education program Growing in Love who has made blasphemous and sexually provocative statements about Jesus and Mary Magdalene and about the relationship between Mary and St. Joseph at Cardinal Roger Mahony's west coast religious education conference;

Daniel C. Maguire: former priest, twice divorced who supports Planned Parenthood, favors abortion and contraception, and authored Sacred Choices: The Right to Contraception and Abortion in Ten World Religions (Fortress Press, 2001);

Fr. Richard P. McBrien: dissenting theologian who calls into question the virginal conception of Jesus, the perpetual virginity of Mary, and claims Jesus did not establish the Catholic Church. He also supports Call to Action. More Information: Notre Dame Theologian Counsels Theologians To Ignore Mandate and Theology According to Richard McBrien

Sr. Elizabeth Johnson, C.S.J.: Radical feminist favoring women's ordination, author of She Who Is, a feminist interpretation of God that promotes pantheism;

Monika Hellwig: feminist theologian who advances the view of the "cosmic Christ."

...... hello? you find a problem with them being cautious of writings by people who have expressed views like these??? :huh:

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

My theology textbook had this approval but I can tell you it was heterodox.

[jasJis]

One has to keep in mind that there is a lot more flexibilty and room for difference of opinion within the solid framework of the Catholic Church than most people think. The ultimate goal is perfection in thought and theology, but we aren't perfected until the we are joined with Jesus in Heaven. In human terms, there is room Discipline differences, debate about details of Doctrine, and wrestling with properly applying and realizing Dogma. Christ's presence is Living, and thus seems fluid to us, but it's us who change in circumstance and understanding, and God who is always constant. God of Mose's day is exactly the same as God today, and God to our offspring, 1,000 years from now, even if their understanding and relationship is as different as ours is as different from Mose's day.

If everything was as rigid and documented to the punctuation mark, then we wouldn't have an arguement against BruceS when he asked us where the definitive declaration of all Dogma exists. There are many issues and details that are not worth the effort of the Church to define and declare, and It isn't moribund with a dusty tome of "Rules and Regulations".

[PhatPhred]

did you look at what it was "bashing"?

It was an article on the sacramental history of the Eucharist that received the Imprimatur from the Archdiocese of Cincinnati.

it is a site critique, and it has the right, no the DUTY to point out such things...

Under canon law they have the duty to address any grievances or critiques they have through the appropriate channels before airing dirty laundry on a public website.

Daniel C. Maguire: former priest, twice divorced who supports ...

I see no reason why the number of times Daniel Maguire has been divorced is even remotely relevant to the fidelity of his writings. This sorry ad hominem attack leaves no doubt in my mind that "trash" is the appropriate word to use in describing Catholic Culture's reviews.

[Dave]

Under canon law they have the duty to address any grievances or critiques they have through the appropriate channels before airing dirty laundry on a public website.

I see no reason why the number of times Daniel Maguire has been divorced is even remotely relevant to the fidelity of his writings. This sorry ad hominem attack leaves no doubt in my mind that "trash" is the appropriate word to use in describing Catholic Culture's reviews.

1. But what if people, not knowing any better, looked at the site and wrongly assumed it was orthodox when it really wasn't?

2. You ignored the rest of the quote. Daniel Maguire favors abortion and contraception and and authored Sacred Choices: The Right to Contraception and Abortion in Ten World Religions (Fortress Press, 2001).

[cmotherofpirl]

Raymond Browns style of writing called into question the historicity of the New Testament. Many people, rightly or wrongly, concluded from his writings the NT was more fiction than fact.

[PhatPhred]

1. But what if people, not knowing any better, looked at the site and wrongly assumed it was orthodox when it really wasn't?

That's what the Imprimatur is for. That way, people who are looking at the site will know that the contents of a particular article are orthodox, even though an author may have written other things that aren't. The "enemies list" approach that Catholic Culture takes is better suited to the Richard Nixon's and Hillary Clinton's of the world than to a website that claims to be Catholic.

2. You ignored the rest of the quote.  Daniel Maguire favors abortion and contraception and and authored Sacred Choices: The Right to Contraception and Abortion in Ten World Religions (Fortress Press, 2001).

I still don't see what about this justifies an ad hominem attack. I wasn't aware than anything would justify an ad hominem attack.

[PhatPhred]

Raymond Browns style of writing called into question the historicity of the New Testament. Many people, rightly or wrongly, concluded from his writings the NT was more fiction than fact.

I can see how that would happen, and this would be an appropriate comment for a Catholic website to make.

However, for Catholic Culture to state that Catholic Update and St. Anthony's Messenger are unfaithful to the magisterium because they ran a special section on Father Brown after he died is quite a (illogical) stretch.

I know a more than a few people who have concluded from reading Catholic Culture that Father Brown was just a bad as Hans Kung.

[M.SIGGA]

That's what the Imprimatur is for. That way, people who are looking at the site will know that the contents of a particular article are orthodox, even though an author may have written other things that aren't. The "enemies list" approach that Catholic Culture takes is better suited to the Richard Nixon's and Hillary Clinton's of the world than to a website that claims to be Catholic.

I agree sort of because the idea of the "enemies" blacklist that some Catholics support today wasn't always supported in the past, when refering to the Imprimatur was a faithful Catholic's duty to ensure they wouldn't be commiting mortal sin by reading anything put on the Index of Forbidden Books. Some examples from history are Cornelius Jansen, Galileo Galilei, and Blaise Pascal.