Biblical Case For Schism

[mortify]

Godchaser,

You ought to consider that your personal understanding of scripture is flawed. Our human intellect can fail us, and any spirit (even one posing as an angel of light) can misguide us into thinking our understanding is inspired. It's also important to realize that scripture is not an exhaustive source that details everything we need to know. Outside of Sacred Tradition (the things the Holy spirit inspired in the words, deeds, and practices established by the Apostles not written down in Scripture), and the Magisterium (the divinely instituted and protected teaching authority which guards the deposit of faith), one can not have a proper understanding of scripture. It makes no sense for you to say you base your life on scripture when those books that make up the bible were defined by the Church some three hundred years after Jesus. If this "Babylonian institution" is responsible for the formation of the bible I honestly don't see why you base your life on it, perhaps this is something you could explain.

Lastly, following what your self dictates is appealing because it's easy, but we must accept the fact that sometimes Truth is very unappealing or even beyond our understanding, and if we were left up to our human intellects we would never acquire knowledge of such Truth.


God bless

[mortify]

[quote name='GodChaser' post='1406348' date='Oct 20 2007, 11:48 PM']When a church does something that you feel is not right, then it is not the church you should be at. If you see them doing something and your first impression is, this isn't right, and you have a knot in your stomach, you probably shouldn't engage in it.[/quote]

This is exactly what the Apostles did not do when Jesus gave the speech about eating His flesh.

[quote]That is the problem. Most people intellectualize religion, and come up with reasons why their religion is the right one using only their brains. Brains are a marevelous gift God has given us, but if we only use our brains, and forget our hearts and instincts, then all we become is programmable computers.[/quote]

It's also important not to get caught up with whimsical feelings which can be based on a number of things which are not related to anything spiritual. Your fallen human nature, your inability to grasp full knowledge of something, your intellect's natural limitation, perhaps it's even an evil spirit fooling you... all these influence your "intuitions." How can you tell whether such feelings are genuine or not? Many a heretic has gone to flames holding on to there false beliefs, what makes you so sure you aren't vainly holding on to something that is really wrong?

My confidence is not in my intuitions but in the promises of Jesus Christ, that He will be with us till the end of time, that He will send His holy Spirit, and that His church will never be overcome by the gates of hell.

[GodChaser]

[quote name='mortify' post='1406353' date='Oct 20 2007, 11:52 PM']Godchaser,

You ought to consider that your personal understanding of scripture is flawed. Our human intellect can fail us, and any spirit (even one posing as an angel of light) can misguide us into thinking our understanding is inspired. It's also important to realize that scripture is not an exhaustive source that details everything we need to know. Outside of Sacred Tradition (the things the Holy spirit inspired in the words, deeds, and practices established by the Apostles not written down in Scripture), and the Magisterium (the divinely instituted and protected teaching authority which guards the deposit of faith), one can not have a proper understanding of scripture. It makes no sense for you to say you base your life on scripture when those books that make up the bible were defined by the Church some three hundred years after Jesus. If this "Babylonian institution" is responsible for the formation of the bible I honestly don't see why you base your life on it, perhaps this is something you could explain.

Lastly, following what your self dictates is appealing because it's easy, but we must accept the fact that sometimes Truth is very unappealing or even beyond our understanding, and if we were left up to our human intellects we would never acquire knowledge of such Truth.
God bless[/quote]

Let me explain,

First, this isn't my intellect.

In my studies about how spirits work, you know how some of the more 'spiritual' christian churches will say, I heard this from the lord, and it's like a voice in their mind. That is how a spirit operates.

Now, I believe the original Catholic Church was authentic. It was having problems with people disagreeing with different doctrines, but it kept the teachings and writtings correct. That is the problem, because there was so much chaos caused by wolves in sheeps clothing during the first 400 years after christ, who knows what is the right way, and what is the wrong way. That is why there are 20,000 denominations now. Who knows.

But what happened, certain stands that shouldn't have been taken, like a stand against the [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yule"]Yuletide season[/url] - I know Wikipedia, which isn't the greatest of sources, but it will serve the purpose - weren't taken, some people went, this isn't right. The Purtins were such a people. They didn't accept Christmas, because it was a practice by Pagans. Are you saying they shouldn't have taken a stand against it?

Pagans still claim the holiday as their own,

[url="http://www.sanfords.net/Pagan_Humor_and_Thoughts/Pagan_Yule_songs.htm"]http://www.sanfords.net/Pagan_Humor_and_Th..._Yule_songs.htm[/url]
[url="http://100777.com/spiritual/xmass"]http://100777.com/spiritual/xmass[/url]
[url="http://www.circlesanctuary.org/pholidays/winterplants.htm"]http://www.circlesanctuary.org/pholidays/winterplants.htm[/url]
[url="http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/issuesideas/story.html?id=53b7e06e-2fe8-4bba-a1c6-3e51e8888e57"]http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/is...c6-3e51e8888e57[/url]

These things don't feel right to me anymore. I don't believe Christmas has anything to do with Christ anymore. I don't believe Easter has anything to do with Christ. And Halloween, with kids running around in ghosts and devil outfits, is definitely not about Christ, and never was.

So I respect the dedication Catholics have for their faith, saying it has never changed, and will stay the same, yesterday, today, and forever, guarded by men who are lead by the spirit, my gut says otherwise. This is not my intellect, but rather my instincts, my fight or flight intelligence, telling me to not belong to an organized church because they are all corrupt, and to fight the evils found in each and every one of them, so maybe, when the spots and blemishes are revealed, we can be washed in the blood of the lamb, to be a perfect bride for Christ, when he calls for us at the end of the tribulation.

[GodChaser]

[quote name='mortify' post='1406365' date='Oct 21 2007, 12:01 AM']This is exactly what the Apostles did not do when Jesus gave the speech about eating His flesh.
It's also important not to get caught up with whimsical feelings which can be based on a number of things which are not related to anything spiritual. Your fallen human nature, your inability to grasp full knowledge of something, your intellect's natural limitation, perhaps it's even an evil spirit fooling you... all these influence your "intuitions." How can you tell whether such feelings are genuine or not? Many a heretic has gone to flames holding on to there false beliefs, what makes you so sure you aren't vainly holding on to something that is really wrong?

My confidence is not in my intuitions but in the promises of Jesus Christ, that He will be with us till the end of time, that He will send His holy Spirit, and that His church will never be overcome by the gates of hell.[/quote]
To quote a great author about spiritual warfare.

[quote name='by Jessie Penn-Lewis with Evan Roberts World Wide Web Edition the Unabridged 1912 Edition']15. God speaking: Through His Word, by His Spirit, in the spirit and conscience of the man, illuminating the mind to understand the will of the Lord. Page 136.

15. Evil spirits speaking, wither puffing up, accusing, condemning or confusing the person, so that the is bewildered or distracted and cannot exercise his reason or judgment. [b]The "speaking" of accusing spirits resembles the "thinking," or speaking to oneself, when the words are not uttered audibly.[/b] Pages 170, 171. Also "Listening" on pages 119, 125, 136, 142, 143.[/quote]

[url="http://www.acts1711.com/TrueWorkings.html"]http://www.acts1711.com/TrueWorkings.html[/url]

Spirits never talk in someone's spirit, which resides in our bellies.

[quote name='God @ John 7:37-39']In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.

He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)[/quote]

Only God's spirit resides in our stomachs, which is the center of our instincts. God talks to our instincts, so we can discern what is of him or not.

Haven't you ever started to do something, and didn't feel right about it, and then stopped?

How about the first time you sinned? Did you not feel a knot in your stomach, that you were breaking God's laws?

Spirits only speak as voices in our minds, not our stomachs or hearts. That is what makes Christianity dangerous. I don't know why I felt Presdient Bush's decision to declare War in Iraq, for instance, was a step towards the Kingdom of the Anti-Christ, four years ago. I just knew, and I knew we needed to do something to help people understand that. I learned much after that, through research, why I had felt that years prior.

You are right, you need to use your brain, and think about things, but you also have to trust your instincts and feelings as well. If you don't, you become a programmable computer, which is only capable of spouting out information, without understanding how it impacts on people. That is where instincts and emotions come in.

[mortify]

Godchaser,

You are relying on your feelings to guide you through very grave matters, basically something doesn't feel right so you stay away from it. Sure, I've felt the knot in my stomach, but I felt it about the Trinity back when I wasn't a Christian, I simply couldn't accept it because it didn't "feel" right. Feelings are just as misleading, if not more so.

Knowing that we have a fallen nature, that our intellects are naturally limited, that there are evil spirits that pose as "feelings" and angels of light, how can you have confidence in your feelings or intellect? You have to consider the possibility that you are just another misguided seeker leading himself to hell on so called good intentions and feelings. I hope you realize that if you are wrong you are seriously risking your salvation, these are not matters I would leave to my feelings which can change from one hour to the next.

I am confident in what I believe because [b]it is not my own[/b], it is not the product of my intellect or my feelings, but that of the Holy Spirit continuing to work through Christ's Church. The biblical and historical evidence that supports my confidence overwhelms anything you have to say concerning your feelings/intuitions. You need to humbly consider the possibility that you are wrong, ask yourself, is there pride hiding in your beliefs?


God bless

Edited October 21, 2007 by mortify

[GodChaser]

[quote name='mortify' post='1406437' date='Oct 21 2007, 01:01 AM']Godchaser,

You are relying on your feelings to guide you through very grave matters, basically something doesn't feel right so you stay away from it. Sure, I've felt the knot in my stomach, but I felt it about the Trinity back when I wasn't a Christian, I simply couldn't accept it because it didn't "feel" right. Feelings are just as misleading, if not more so.

Knowing that we have a fallen nature, that our intellects are naturally limited, that there are evil spirits that pose as "feelings" and angels of light, how can you have confidence in your feelings or intellect? You have to consider the possibility that you are just another misguided seeker leading himself to hell on so called good intentions and feelings. I hope you realize that if you are wrong you are seriously risking your salvation, these are not matters I would leave to my feelings which can change from one hour to the next.

I am confident in what I believe because [b]it is not my own[/b], it is not the product of my intellect or my feelings, but that of the Holy Spirit continuing to work through Christ's Church. The biblical and historical evidence that supports my confidence overwhelms anything you have to say concerning your feelings/intuitions. You need to humbly consider the possibility that you are wrong, ask yourself, is there pride hiding in your beliefs?
God bless[/quote]

Its not just feelings my friend. It is intellect, feelings, and instincts together. Of course, I could be decieved by my own thoughts and intellect. But I am 100 per cent confident in God's grace in my life because whosoever believeth on the son shall have life everlasting.

Do you know I don't have the holy spirit? Or is it your pride saying, you don't want to admit someone from a different religion than yours is going to heaven.

Before you were a believer, that's a different thing, because you can't have the holy spirit until you repent, and give your life to God.

After that, after you repent of your sins, everything changes, because God can fill you with his spirit, and guide you. I am 100 per cent confident in what I am saying. Would you look at a rattle snake, and see it rattleing, and not follow your instinct that you are in danger. Then why not listen to the spirit when it is talking to you saying you have to give something up to continue to live for God.

I've had to do that. If am I decieved, then I gave up college and 3d animation this year because that knot in my stomach was telling me that I shouldn't go to college this year, but the next. You see, it goes farther than what religion I should belong to Mortify, it goes with all other life decisions too. Why would an evil spirit care weither or not I go to college?

[mortify]

[quote name='GodChaser' post='1406445' date='Oct 21 2007, 01:12 AM']Its not just feelings my friend. [b]It is intellect[/b], feelings, and instincts together.[/quote]

Godchaser, do you honestly know what you are talking about? A few posts ago you explicitly said:

Post #63: [color="#FF0000"]"First, this [u]isn't[/u] my intellect."[/color]

And again in the same post:

[color="#FF0000"]"[u]This is not my intellect[/u], but rather my instincts, my fight or flight intelligence,"[/color]

I don't mean to call you out like this, but I want you to see for yourself how whimsical the whole belief system you constructed for yourself is. It's as if your whole understanding of this is slowly evolving in this very thread, is this the house of cards you plan to seek shelter in?

[quote]Do you know I don't have the holy spirit? Or is it your pride saying, you don't want to admit someone from a different religion than yours is going to heaven[/quote]

St Paul said if even an angel of light comes preaching a different gospel than the one we have received, we are to reject it. The criteria is the deposit of faith handed down faithfully through out the centuries under the protection of the Holy Ghost through the Magisterium. If some "feeling" is leading you away from the Truth then it is not the Holy Spirit, clearly the Spirit is not the author of contradictions.

[quote]Before you were a believer, that's a different thing, because you can't have the holy spirit until you repent, and give your life to God.[/quote]

Just to be clear about this I was responding to what you said in post 60:
[color="#FF0000"]"When a church does something that you feel is not right, then it is not the church you should be at. If you see them doing something and your first impression is, this isn't right, and you have a knot in your stomach, you probably shouldn't engage in it."[/color]

Had I gone through following my feelings about the trinity I would have never become Christian, perhaps at most some unitarian type that believes Jesus is not Divine. Fortunately grace saved me from my false feelings, and as it turned out, the Trinity is the first doctrine that I began to understand.

What I want you to realize is that feelings and instincts are not precise methods of determining what is true, and even after our baptism and personal conversion to Christ we can STILL be fooled by false feelings. Just look at how many Christians contradict each other, all confidently believing they are right because they believe in Jesus and the Spirit is working through them, clearly they can't all be right, which means many are deceiving themselves. That is why it is important for the Spirit to make Truth known to us objectively (in a way we can all come to know), and that is one fundamental reason why we need a Magisterium to act as the "Voice of God," so to speak. Otherwise we are left up to our subjective feelings, something I personally am not confident in.

[quote]I've had to do that. If am I decieved, then I gave up college and 3d animation this year because that knot in my stomach was telling me that I shouldn't go to college this year, but the next. You see, it goes farther than what religion I should belong to Mortify, it goes with all other life decisions too. Why would an evil spirit care weither or not I go to college?[/quote]

You really underestimate evil spirits, that is certainly the trick of their trade, make people believe their intuitions are divinely inspired when really they're leading themselves down a problematic path.

Your feelings are not divinely inspired if they lead you away from truth, nor does Holy Scripture elevate our personal feelings as arbiters for truth, nor can you call your feelings infallible since you openly contradicted yourself in this thread. Ask yourself this seriously, would you bank your salvation on the feelings that produced those contradictory statements?

Edited October 21, 2007 by mortify

[GodChaser]

[quote name='mortify' post='1406550' date='Oct 21 2007, 11:07 AM']Godchaser, do you honestly know what you are talking about? A few posts ago you explicitly said:

Post #63: [color="#FF0000"]"First, this [u]isn't[/u] my intellect."[/color]

And again in the same post:

[color="#FF0000"]"[u]This is not my intellect[/u], but rather my instincts, my fight or flight intelligence,"[/color]

I don't mean to call you out like this, but I want you to see for yourself how whimsical the whole belief system you constructed for yourself is. It's as if your whole understanding of this is slowly evolving in this very thread, is this the house of cards you plan to seek shelter in?

What I want you to realize is that feelings and instincts are not precise methods of determining what is true, and even after our baptism and personal conversion to Christ we can STILL be fooled by false feelings. Just look at how many Christians contradict each other, all confidently believing they are right because they believe in Jesus and the Spirit is working through them, clearly they can't all be right, which means many are deceiving themselves. That is why it is important for the Spirit to make Truth known to us objectively (in a way we can all come to know), and that is one fundamental reason why we need a Magisterium to act as the "Voice of God," so to speak. Otherwise we are left up to our subjective feelings, something I personally am not confident in.
You really underestimate evil spirits, that is certainly the trick of their trade, make people believe their intuitions are divinely inspired when really they're leading themselves down a problematic path.

Your feelings are not divinely inspired if they lead you away from truth, nor does Holy Scripture elevate our personal feelings as arbiters for truth, nor can you call your feelings infallible since you openly contradicted yourself in this thread. Ask yourself this seriously, would you bank your salvation on the feelings that produced those contradictory statements?[/quote]

LOL!

I live for God, listen to his voice talking to me, and now you are saying.

1.) This is a evil spirit trying to move me down a problematic path. (That's interesting, because since I left my old church, and just started to pray, read my bible, and listen to my instincts, my path has been much more blessed. In fact the only times I am struggling over things would be the time I don't listen to my instincts).

And since leaving School, I have much more time on my hands, and Now I am starting to enjoy life again, and not feel that there isn't enough hours in the day to do all the things I am doing.

The voice of God telling me things through my instincts has actually lifted burdens, and while I am writting this, I get the impression you need to repent. I ask you to do this immediately, and ask God for forgiveness for your assaults on my character and your pride because you have exalted your religion and denounced God's grace in the world, saying it can only be found in your religion.

My honest opinion of your last post is this is a post of desperation, where you are desperately trying to make me look foolish, and you want people not to listen to me.

I have explained this more than a few times. Before you became a Christian meant your instincts were owned by the devil. But when you repented of your sins, and gave your life to God, you then had him leading you. So your thoughts about the Trinity were incorrect because the Devil owned you. This is not true when you repent and you give your life to God.

Now, as I said, evil spirits can only speak to your mind, as a voice that sounds like your voice, and it always puffs up. I don't listen to that voice anymore, because I know it for what it is, a demonic spirit. Whenever I hear that voice I send it to the bottomless pit. That is how you determine what is of God or not.

You can accuse all you want Mortify, but your accusations are going to come to no effect, because I know I am saved because Scripture (my mind), my Relationship with God (emotions), and my instincts (my strength) tell me I am saved, in grace, and ready to be with my God when he brings me home.

You on the other hand, looking at your posts, you seem more like the accuser of the breathern than Jesus. Jesus would never post up what you just did, insulting people, saying someone is following whimisical feelings from an evil spirit just to make them follow their religion. My lord always went to people who needed and asked for help. He didn't force his help on them, because he is a gentlemen. You act like Lucifer more than you act like Jesus, showing you don't listen to your emotions and instincts, because had you, you would have realized something mortify, if someone did the same to you, you would have been upset and hurt at their accusations. Think about that, as you are reading this, and how hurt you are!

[Norseman82]

[quote name='GodChaser' post='1406269' date='Oct 20 2007, 10:20 PM']God also told them asking for a King was the worst thing they could ask for. Read, and Re-Read 1st Samuel 8:5-18 again.[/quote]

The question was schism, not kings. Please stay on topic.

[quote name='GodChaser' post='1406269' date='Oct 20 2007, 10:20 PM']And if you believe we are actually creating the global warming phenomenon, then you are sorely mistaken. This is more about Government taking more money away from people for a 'Carbon Tax' than it is about saving the environment.

[url="http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3069943905833454241&hl=en"]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=30...54241&hl=en[/url]
[url="http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/november2006/161106suvjupiter.htm"]http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/novem...6suvjupiter.htm[/url]
[url="http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/pluto_warming_021009.html"]http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/plut...ing_021009.html[/url]
[url="http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/060504_red_jr.html"]http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/060504_red_jr.html[/url]
[url="http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/Science/2006/11/09/nasa_looks_at_a_monster_storm_on_saturn/4126/"]http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/Science/2006/...on_saturn/4126/[/url]
[url="http://www.scienceagogo.com/news/19980526052143data_trunc_sys.shtml"]http://www.scienceagogo.com/news/199805260...trunc_sys.shtml[/url]
[url="http://www.lubbockonline.com/news/092897/study.htm"]http://www.lubbockonline.com/news/092897/study.htm[/url]
[url="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/07/18/wsun18.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/07/18/ixnewstop.html"]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml.../ixnewstop.html[/url]

All based on science that we didn't have a hundred years ago. Guess what, I believe the sun is getting warmer, and as a result, the entire solar system is getting warmer, which is consistent with all the articles I have just provided to you.

But now, the pope is saying we need to be 'good stewards', like we're not, and protect the environment. Want to know how much I believe my efforts affect the environment. In a biology textbook, there was a list of radiation sources in it, showing much much of a percentage of our radiation levels were created by what. The sun was the biggest source of radiation. So why the sun not being looked at for the global warming debate? So why is there only one side and that is global warming is 100 per cent man. I don't believe that, and I believe it is bunk.

And get the crazy thing, I don't think it is bad either. I think the earth can get warmer. In fact, there are studies that show that the Brass Age came into existance during a period of climate change, and so did the rennisance. Wow, those were such a bad time for the globe. Why are we so afraid of something that is good. This reminds me of the scripture evil men will run away from anything, including things that aren't real![/quote]

The topic is not about the validity of global warming; it is about the Church speaking out about something it didn't speak out about 100 or 200 years ago. You accused the Church of changing its position; I merely refuted what you said by pointing out that the situation simply did not exist back then. Chew on this: not every modern-day situation existed in the Bible (like embryonic stem cell research).

Again, please stay on topic.

[mortify]

Godchaser,

Judging by your emotional outburst I must have struck a cord. You must see that going by your feelings is not the firm foundation you want it to be, I understand you have already made some big changes in your life according to this way of thinking, and so it's going to be even more difficult to consider the possibility that you are wrong. The reality is the effects of our present decisions may not manifest until years to come, so short sighting it is not a wise thing to do.

Your belief that I was simply trying to discredit you so that others wont listen to you falls under the rest of your misguided feelings that lead you away from truth. I'm simply showing you the inconsistence of your beliefs. You said you "studied" the ways of the Spirit yet you flattly contradict yourself about these mysterious feelings that guide your life. If this had been about burgers vs hotdogs, or ketchup vs mustard it wouldn't matter, but you are making grave decisions that affect you spiritually and secularly based off emotions that are inconsistent. You really need to consider the fact that you are mistaken, that you are being deceived, please note I did not say that an evil spirit is guiding your life in my posts (btw, if you can't get the jist of my posts how are you going to get the jist of the bible?), what I said was the Spirit does not lead us away from Truth. Your feelings are leading you away from truth, but that doesn't mean an evil spirit is leading you, it could very well be you confusing inspiration with faulty feelings.

Lastly, before criticizing me you ought to consider the hurt your words have done, when you mock our faith and things we hold sacred because of your whimsical feelings.

Edited October 21, 2007 by mortify

[GodChaser]

s[quote name='mortify' post='1406591' date='Oct 21 2007, 01:40 PM']Godchaser,

Judging by your emotional outburst I must have struck a cord. You must see that going by your feelings is not the firm foundation you want it to be, I understand you have already made some big changes in your life according to this way of thinking, and so it's going to be even more difficult to consider the possibility that you are wrong. The reality is the effects of our present decisions may not manifest until years to come, so short sighting it is not a wise thing to do.

Your belief that I was simply trying to discredit you so that others wont listen to you falls under the rest of your misguided feelings that lead you away from truth. I'm simply showing you the inconsistence of your beliefs. You said you "studied" the ways of the Spirit yet you flattly contradict yourself about these mysterious feelings that guide your life. If this had been about burgers vs hotdogs, or ketchup vs mustard it wouldn't matter, but you are making grave decisions that affect you spiritually and secularly based off emotions that are inconsistent. You really need to consider the fact that you are mistaken, that you are being deceived, please note I did not say that an evil spirit is guiding your life in my posts (btw, if you can't get the jist of my posts how are you going to get the jist of the bible?), what I said was the Spirit does not lead us away from Truth. Your feelings are leading you away from truth, but that doesn't mean an evil spirit is leading you, it could very well be you confusing inspiration with faulty feelings.

Lastly, before criticizing me you ought to consider the hurt your words have done, when you mock our faith and things we hold sacred because of your whimsical feelings.[/quote]

Actually Mortify, I am not confused what so ever.

I am secured in my life in God. What I am saying is the Catholic Religion has some spots and wrinkles and they need to clean those up before I will join that religion. I can't wait to see the day of the Lord, when God's Children finally come together, clean up the spots and wrinkles in the church, and we finally inherit the earth. That is a day I can't wait for, because finally there will be no such thing as religion, but there will be a universal faith for all those who profess Christ, including people of the jewish race and gentile race. Then I will belong to the Catholic Church. That day will come soon, but until it happens, i will spend time alone, learning the word of God on my own.

You make a huge assumption that I am lead away from the truth by my faulty feelings. Should I then not listen to them anymore, and just be a programmable computer that can have huge amounts of data stored into me, without any emotion and instinct guiding me as well. Sounds like a dictatorship to me, but hey, you must be right because your arguement is flawless!

BTW, judging from the fruits of your posts, I don't believe you are a child of God.

Edited October 21, 2007 by GodChaser

[CatholicCid]

Godchild, could you clarify a point for me? Mortify brought this up but I didn't see it really clarified as it was one point of a large post.

You said:
When a church does something that you feel is not right, then it is not the church you should be at. If you see them doing something and your first impression is, this isn't right, and you have a knot in your stomach, you probably shouldn't engage in it.

Mortify said:
This is exactly what the Apostles did not do when Jesus gave the speech about eating His flesh.


So, when Christ was talking about how we must eat of his flesh and his body, those disciples around him... left... Were they right? They heard Christ himself preach... and thought that this isn't right... and left.

[IgnatiusAntioch]

[quote name='Norseman82' post='1406251' date='Oct 20 2007, 10:49 PM']I was told by someone once that just as God tore the Northern Kingdom away from Solomon's successors as a punishment for corruption, He also tore the Protestants away from the Catholic Church.[/quote]

Yes, but the House of David and the people of Israel sinned while the Church can never sin.

[GodChaser]

[quote name='CatholicCid' post='1406606' date='Oct 21 2007, 02:17 PM']Godchild, could you clarify a point for me? Mortify brought this up but I didn't see it really clarified as it was one point of a large post.

You said:
When a church does something that you feel is not right, then it is not the church you should be at. If you see them doing something and your first impression is, this isn't right, and you have a knot in your stomach, you probably shouldn't engage in it.

Mortify said:
This is exactly what the Apostles did not do when Jesus gave the speech about eating His flesh.
So, when Christ was talking about how we must eat of his flesh and his body, those disciples around him... left... Were they right? They heard Christ himself preach... and thought that this isn't right... and left.[/quote]
Since I have read the last supper only about a hundred times.

[quote]And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.

And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;

For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.[/quote]

However, you must mean this group of scripture.

[quote]I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.[/quote]

Clearly, these were not followers of Jesus, and therefore didn't understand the spiritual signifigance he was talking about.

You can intellectualize all you want, and come up with arguements, but it will not sway me.

[BG45]

[quote name='GodChaser' post='1405930' date='Oct 20 2007, 02:19 AM']My opinion, and this is only my opinion as a former tongue talker, it is nonsense, and they are people really moved by their own lusts, itching ears, and pride to think they 'have the real thing'. What the frick is the 'real thing' in Christianity anyways? We're all learning from God, and he is leading and guiding us all, but yet, every church will say it is the real thing, despite the evils in all of them?[/quote]


It's possible that it's all people moved by what they want to believe is "the real thing". Or it's possible that there might be a genuine experience of some sort there. This is why I don't particularly enjoy arguing about theology, the issue of everyone has to believe he or she is right.

[quote]When a church does something that you feel is not right, then it is not the church you should be at. If you see them doing something and your first impression is, this isn't right, and you have a knot in your stomach, you probably shouldn't engage in it.[/quote]

Indeed. I was quite angry at a church split that was forced in my home church, causing me to leave it. Imagine my chagrin that I was upset over a break in a 150 year old tradition...