Cosmos, Time, Dimensional Existance....u Name It

[BibleReader]

[center][size=4][b][color="#FF0000"][u]What do you think?[/u][/color][/b][/size][/center]
Just on my own accord I like to take common theories, facts, even lies or misunderstandings of the world, mostly about the universe and all within, and try to make some sense of them. The real trick is to do this without breaking any scripture. Everything in this debate must be submitted with the assumption that every word in the Bible is absolute truth. Not to say that interpertations can't be made where necessary, but don't slaughter the Word of God, nor its meaning.

My first topic of discussion is a rather complex idea. One that states that God created time, and all the actions within it's domain are precreated. This would support predestination and explain God's Omniscience of our universe. This would also indicate that God exists outside time (whatever that may be), and His omnipresence is even further than that of this universe. It would also explain how God always was/is/will be.

The disputed part would be of eternity. We understand it as a continued existance through time, which would have had a begginning. Does it end? Did it start? Did God create it...

(God may not have created time...he didn't create nothingness...it is just lack of existance. Time may be just progression...another nonexistant thing that humans have given name to)


This is open ended...preferably supported by logic/scripture. I wanna discull theories!!!

[Anomaly]

Are you saying that God created a 'perpetual motion construct' (our existinece) that cycles through this reality (time, past & future), and at the end of time, re-emerges into a different type of existence outside of our linear time and we exist in eternity?

What's far-fetched about that?

[N/A Gone]

BibleReader

You have a lot of loaded terms here that need to be fleshed out before you can have the debate move in a way you want.

-what is considered a common theory?

[quote]The real trick is to do this without breaking any scripture.[/quote]

-Who judges that?

[quote]Everything in this debate must be submitted with the assumption that every word in the Bible is absolute truth.[/quote]

-According to what hermenutical school of thought?

[quote]One that states that God created time[/quote]

-define time

[quote]and all the actions within it's domain are precreated.[/quote]

-big assumption, define it and back it up.

[quote]This would support predestination and explain God's Omniscience of our universe.[/quote]

-there are numerous ways that explain God's omniscience without buying into a calvinistic predestination.

[quote]God exists outside time (whatever that may be),[/quote]

-define

[quote]and His omnipresence is even further than that of this universe.[/quote]

-define, and scripture would be nice.

[quote]It would also explain how God always was/is/will be.[/quote]

-other better ways to do this besides a calvinistic predestination. The bible does not have a picture of a tulip.

[quote]The disputed part would be of eternity. We understand it as a continued existance through time, which would have had a begginning. Does it end? Did it start? Did God create it...[/quote]

-this debate could exist without the polemic pre-reqs

[quote]This is open ended...preferably supported by logic/scripture. I wanna discuss theories!!![/quote]

-what theories do you want?

[BibleReader]

[quote name='Revprodeji' post='1387987' date='Sep 18 2007, 04:49 PM']BibleReader

You have a lot of loaded terms here that need to be fleshed out before you can have the debate move in a way you want.

-what is considered a common theory?
-Who judges that?
-According to what hermenutical school of thought?
-define time
-big assumption, define it and back it up.
-there are numerous ways that explain God's omniscience without buying into a calvinistic predestination.
-define
-define, and scripture would be nice.
-other better ways to do this besides a calvinistic predestination. The bible does not have a picture of a tulip.
-this debate could exist without the polemic pre-reqs
-what theories do you want?[/quote]

I'm looking for your ideas on these subjects. I was throwing ideas out there and asking for others' opinions/thoughts/ideas. The only rule that I ask persons in this forum to abide by is to [i]assume[/i] the truth of the bible word for word.

[BibleReader]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1387980' date='Sep 18 2007, 04:43 PM']Are you saying that God created a 'perpetual motion construct' (our existinece) that cycles through this reality (time, past & future), and at the end of time, re-emerges into a different type of existence outside of our linear time and we exist in eternity?

What's far-fetched about that?[/quote]
That is an excellent way of stating it. I never said hard to believe...just sometimes hard to fully comprehend...sometimes impossible.

[N/A Gone]

For the sake of the readers it is better for me not to post on this thread until I have seeked council for it.

That being said, I do strongly urge you to redefine your question or define the parameters that you are suggestings.

[kafka]

Here are some of my understandings:

God is Eternity. No beginning and no end. God is beyond Time and Place, therefore He is Timeless and Placeless yet also within all Times and at all Places.

All God's Creation has a beginning. With Creation came/comes Time and Place.

Time is the fixed ordering and separation of events into before and after.
Place is the separation and ordering of things into here and there.

Angels and Souls are eternal in the sense that live forever, yet with their creation they had a beginning. So they are not eternal in the sense that God is Eternal.

Heaven is with Eternal God, beyond Time and Place. Heaven is Timeless, so once someone enters Heaven they have always been there. And this is Predestination. Predestination is simply a necessary result of the existence of Heaven beyond Time. And it is a necessary result of the truth that God is One Divine Eternal Act. Our salvation, and presence in Heaven is not future tense to God. God is already with the Elect. Note from the Book of Revelation:

The Book of Life:

{Revelation 20:12} And I saw the dead, great and small, standing in view of the throne. And books were opened. And another Book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged by those things that had been written in the books, according to their works . . . {20:15} And whoever was not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the pool of fire.

The book of life is a symbol of Heaven and those therein who are saved. The names in the book of life have always been there before the foundation of the world since Heaven is created beyond Time and Place since it is with God. Notice:
Revelation
{13:8} And all who inhabit the earth worshiped the beast, those whose names have not been written, from the origin of the world, in the Book of Life of the Lamb who was slain.

~these men who worship the beast are not written in the Book of Life before the origin of the world.

[prose]

my noggin hurts with this one....

[kafka]

[quote name='prose' post='1388186' date='Sep 18 2007, 07:15 PM']my noggin hurts with this one....[/quote]

sorry I tried to make it simple

[BibleReader]

[quote name='kafka' post='1388083' date='Sep 18 2007, 06:07 PM']Here are some of my understandings:

God is Eternity. No beginning and no end. God is beyond Time and Place, therefore He is Timeless and Placeless yet also within all Times and at all Places.[/quote]

i love your reasonings and thoughts. The only problem i am having with your logic is where you say once you're in heaven you've always been there.

I suppose if you place heaven outside of time then arrival/departure/acts therein don't matter. there is no before or after. But if you apply those same rules to heaven itself then, Heaven could be considered an equal with God. It would have no before or after...it also would be timeless and thus not able to have been created by God...the author of all things.

Please go further in depth on your point.

[BibleReader]

[color="#FF0000"][size=5]For All Reading this[/size][/color]
This is just a discussion. There is no real right or wrong. We are just exploring peoples' understanding of the universe and discussing those ideas therein.

Thank You

[kafka]

[quote name='BibleReader' post='1388781' date='Sep 19 2007, 06:13 PM']i love your reasonings and thoughts. The only problem i am having with your logic is where you say once you're in heaven you've always been there.

I suppose if you place heaven outside of time then arrival/departure/acts therein don't matter. there is no before or after. But if you apply those same rules to heaven itself then, Heaven could be considered an equal with God. It would have no before or after...it also would be timeless and thus not able to have been created by God...the author of all things.

Please go further in depth on your point.[/quote]

Sorry I meant to say once one enters Heaven they have always been there from its beginning. Heaven is a created thing, therefore it has a beginning like all created things. Only God is Eternal and has no beginning. Yet Heaven is with God, so it is truly Timeless and Placeless. Heaven is beyond Time and was created outside of Time and Place. So Heaven is like all Time and Place put together at once or like no Time or Place at all. It is not only Timeless but Timeful, not only Placeless but Placeful. It was created outside of Time and therefore before Time began. And so the angels and saints of Heaven can see the Creation of the Universe and all historical events as if in present tense: in awe and wonder.

Once Heaven was created and began, beyond Time and Place, there is no before or after, nor here or there, for the Blessed dwelling there until the First Heaven ends (Rev 21:1). So Heaven is not Eternal as God is, since with its creation it had a beginning. And the First Heaven has an end so it is not eternal even in the secondary sense of the word. And so Heaven is not equal to God, it is merely with God. It is a supernatural, mysterious, and miraculous creation beyond the complete comprehension of men.

Did I clear things up BibleReader? What are your thoughts?

Edited September 19, 2007 by kafka

[Amos]

BibleReader,

The best definition I've ever heard for time is "the measure of that which constantly changes". (I read this in an awesome book called "Theology and Sanity" by Frank Sheed. I don't have any biblical quotes to back this up because the Jewish people weren't especially interested in metaphysics.)

If time is the measure of that which changes, time began with the start of the physical universe. Only physical things change constantly (like my finger position as I type this, a car going down the street, atoms vibrating in an atomic clock). Non physical things - like the ideas of Justice and Truth and the number 3 - don't change, so they are not time-bound. The number 3 will not someday become 3.5 or anything else like that, so time does not apply to it.

God also does not change. In James 1, God the Father is called the "Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change." Thus God is not physical according to his nature. This makes perfect sense when we consider that "God is Spirit" (Jn. 4:24), Existence (Ex. 3:20) and Truth (Jn. 14:6). (See CCC 212-221)

[Jaime]

Its 2:53

[beatty07]

Have you read Einstein's book exploring different definitions/ideas of time?

I'm having trouble finding any sense to the word "precreation" that maintains God's non-temporal existence.

And if I may suggest a definition clarification: "eternal" vs. "everlasting." "Eternal" is that which has neither beginning nor end, i.e., God and only God. "Everlasting" is that which has a beginning and no end, i.e., an angel or a human being. Nobody insists on this in everyday talk. We talk about our "eternal life." But for discussions like this, I think a distinction is needed.

I've never found anything really solid indicating whether our everlasting life will include time. There's something beautiful about Lewis' treatment at the end of the Chr.s of Narnia, where Heaven is depicted as sort of a continual rushing motion toward God, "higher up and further in" or something like that. I'm not saying that's the way it is... just that I think it's an open question whether we'll experience some kind of glorified time in Heaven.