Must There Be A Jesus?

[Anthony]

[quote name='carrdero' post='1384758' date='Sep 13 2007, 05:43 AM']Must There Be A Jesus?
How does the existence of Jesus effect the evolution of humans? Spiritually? Culturally?
Does the significance of the purpose of Jesus reflect a regretful God in anyway?
What might current life mean for humans without the sacrifice of Jesus?
What would a world without Jesus be like? Spiritually? Culturally?[/quote]

I will go out on a limb and say yes.

[1337 k4th0l1x0r]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1384984' date='Sep 13 2007, 04:49 PM']if the chinese never and don't do sacrifices to deities etc, then maybe it's not so inherent in human nature, and not part of the truth.[/quote]
The Chinese (pre-Christian) often practiced ancestor worship and left small sacrifices to their deceased ancestors.

[carrdero]

[quote]carrdero writes: Does the significance of the purpose of Jesus reflect a regretful God in anyway?[/quote][quote name='Mateo el Feo' post='1384852' date='Sep 13 2007, 12:08 PM']Regret is contrary to two attibutes of the Divinity: [url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1004.htm"]perfection[/url] (i.e. not making mistakes/needing to evolve) and [url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1009.htm"]immutability[/url] (i.e. not changing).[/quote]
[color="#000080"]Gen 6:7 So the LORD said, "I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them." [/color]

It seems that the Lord is no stranger to regret. In the Old testament the Lord had unique ways to handle certain imperfections, I was just wondering why there would be a need to offer an only begotten son rather than just wipng the slate clean.

[quote]Mateo el Feo writes: Back to the original question: Must there be a Jesus? The answer is "Yes." Jesus is God. Without God, there would be no Creation.

I don't want to put words in your mouth; but, maybe the question you're getting at is, "Must there have been an Incarnation?"[/quote]
I remember that there were some religioins that taught that the aspect of the son was with God in the beginning but I do not think this aspect was named Jesus, but you are correct, I am referring to the physical incarnation.

Edited September 14, 2007 by carrdero

[Kirisutodo333]

[quote name='carrdero' post='1385324' date='Sep 14 2007, 08:08 AM'][color="#000080"]Gen 6:7 So the LORD said, "I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them." [/color]

It seems that the Lord is no stranger to regret. In the Old testament the Lord had unique ways to handle certain imperfections, I was just wondering why there would be a need to offer an only begotten son rather than just wipng the slate clean.
I remember that there were some religioins that taught that the aspect of the son was with God in the beginning but I do not think this aspect was named Jesus, but you are correct, I am referring to the physical incarnation.[/quote]

The incarnation can be viewed as the full realization of the acceptance of God's offer of salvation. When the Logos took on a human nature, human nature itself reached the goal toward which it had always tended. It is the goal of man to fully say yes to God's self communication. Is is the freedom of man to say yes or no to God. One must be perfect to fully say yes 100% to God all the time. It takes perfection. But only God is perfect. So it takes God to be perfect. So it takes God to be incarnated as human to be able to fully accept God's offer of grace and salvation. It takes God to say "yes to God' straight across the board/100%. Man is prone to sinning (ergo he cannot say yes to God all the time). But it takes man to accept God's self offer of salvation. So the God/Man Jesus is the only one to fully accept God's offer of salvation and make it so. He is both man and perfection. Jesus is the perfect realization of the union between God and man.

P.S. Don't live in the "if". Live in the "is". Jesus Christ is what "is", not what "if."

[Lord Philip]

[quote name='carrdero' post='1385324' date='Sep 14 2007, 05:08 AM'][color="#000080"]Gen 6:7 So the LORD said, "I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them." [/color]

It seems that the Lord is no stranger to regret. In the Old testament the Lord had unique ways to handle certain imperfections, I was just wondering why there would be a need to offer an only begotten son rather than just wipng the slate clean.
I remember that there were some religioins that taught that the aspect of the son was with God in the beginning but I do not think this aspect was named Jesus, but you are correct, I am referring to the physical incarnation.[/quote]

But as I said in my above post, God is not simply seeking to remove sin from us (a negative action), but to infuse us with his very life (a positive action). He wants us to be in communion with him. I am risking irrevernece here, but God is not into long-distance relationships. He wants to communicate his very life to us.

The thing that makes this so amazing is that next to God we are nothing. There is a finite difference between a slug and a man, but there is an infinite difference between a man and God. So as you can see this is a complete act of charity on God's part. It is LOVE, and this love is the ingredient that I think you are not taking into account.

God bless,

Philip

[Lord Philip]

[quote name='carrdero' post='1385324' date='Sep 14 2007, 05:08 AM'][color="#000080"]Gen 6:7 So the LORD said, "I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them." [/color]

It seems that the Lord is no stranger to regret. In the Old testament the Lord had unique ways to handle certain imperfections, I was just wondering why there would be a need to offer an only begotten son rather than just wipng the slate clean.
I remember that there were some religioins that taught that the aspect of the son was with God in the beginning but I do not think this aspect was named Jesus, but you are correct, I am referring to the physical incarnation.[/quote]

But as I said in my above post, God is not simply seeking to remove sin from us (a negative action), but to infuse us with his very life (a positive action). He wants us to be in communion with him. I am risking irreverence here, but God is not into long-distance relationships. He wants to communicate his very life to us.

The thing that makes this so amazing is that next to God we are nothing. There is a finite difference between a slug and a man, but there is an infinite difference between a man and God. So as you can see this is a complete act of charity on God's part. It is LOVE, and this love is the ingredient that I think you are not taking into account.

God bless,

Philip

P.S. The Lord "regretting" having made us is an anthropomorphism. While it is communicating an absolute truth, it must not be taken literally as meaning that God was sitting up in the clouds actually feeling regret in his heart.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='carrdero' post='1385324' date='Sep 14 2007, 08:08 AM'][color="#000080"]Gen 6:7 So the LORD said, "I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them." [/color]

It seems that the Lord is no stranger to regret. In the Old testament the Lord had unique ways to handle certain imperfections, I was just wondering why there would be a need to offer an only begotten son rather than just wipng the slate clean.[/quote]Interestingly, this quote from Genesis is specifically addressed by St. Thomas Aquinas in the Summa Theologica:

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1019.htm#7"]Article 7. Whether the will of God is changeable?[/url]

The relevant text (clipped from the question):[quote][b]Objection 1.[/b] It seems that the Will of God is changeable. For the Lord says (Genesis 6:7): "It repenteth Me that I have made man." But whoever repents of what he has done, has a changeable will. Therefore God has a changeable will.

[b]Reply to Objection 1.[/b] These words of the Lord are to be understood metaphorically, and according to the likeness of our nature. For when we repent, we destroy what we have made; although we may even do so without change of will; as, when a man wills to make a thing, at the same time intending to destroy it later. Therefore God is said to have repented, by way of comparison with our mode of acting, in so far as by the deluge He destroyed from the face of the earth man whom He had made.[/quote]

[quote name='carrdero' post='1385324' date='Sep 14 2007, 08:08 AM']I remember that there were some religioins that taught that the aspect of the son was with God in the beginning but I do not think this aspect was named Jesus, but you are correct, I am referring to the physical incarnation.[/quote]I understand now, thanks for the clarification. I just didn't want to assume too much about what you were saying.

Technically, one could talk about the Second Person of the Trinity as the "Son of God" or the "Word of God."