Must There Be A Jesus?

[carrdero]

Must There Be A Jesus?
How does the existence of Jesus effect the evolution of humans? Spiritually? Culturally?
Does the significance of the purpose of Jesus reflect a regretful God in anyway?
What might current life mean for humans without the sacrifice of Jesus?
What would a world without Jesus be like? Spiritually? Culturally?

[Era Might]

There would be no Europe and Western culture as we know it, which was formed by Christianity. The Americas may have been discovered, but there would have been no Guadalupe that converted them. There would probably not be the United States as we know them. There would be no Vatican and Sistine Chapel to visit, there would be no Mother Teresa serving Jesus in the poorest of the poor. There would be no GK Chesterton, CS Lewis, St. Francis of Assisi, St. Augustine, and all the great figures of history who were influenced by the Gospel. And worst of all, we would still be alienated from God by sin.

[quote]If Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain.

--1Corinthians 15:14[/quote]

[thessalonian]

It's not a matter of must there or must there not. There was/is. Those who deny or want to deny it are simply not looking at the evidence with any rational objectivity.

[dairygirl4u2c]

i think the lack of good in the world indicates sin. the logic behind that statement is complicated and i'm still forming it.

i had a thought the other day. indians are known for sacraficing to gods. westerners are known for it. i guess teh chinese are not. but, the fact that so many are i wonder is indicative of the sacrafice of the cross. it's like natural if they were naturally sacraficing to the gods. kinda like how God is natural, arguably, given the history of belief in him before modern persuasions sprang up.
i make htis point cause it's hard for me to accept legal atonement, but it's fairly biblical and historical and i don't want to deny the truth, if that's it.

[thessalonian]

Dairy,

The first part of your post I believe to be quite correct. Rom 2:14-16 says that all men have God's laws implanted on their hearts. Now this includes the first 3 commandments about worshipping God. Therefore all men have a natural desire to worship him. It goes awry in to paganism because they don't know who he is but that is the source of it. Sacrifice seems also to be a part of this as you say. It is apparently a part of the natural order that sacrifice is a part of worship of God.

[beatty07]

That's funny, I was talking about that very thing in this morning's homily: how it's almost a universal to sacrifice to god/gods, anthropologically speaking. The need for atonement is written in the hearts of all. Israel was constantly tempted to slide back into a pagan kind of sacrifice, where you are filling some need of your god, where your god can be appeased or "bought off." This was a recurring temptation, hence "I desire mercy, not sacrifice," "I am sick of your sacrifices" [while you do injustice], "Do you think I eat the blood of goats?", etc.

It becomes more and more clear through salvation history that we stand in need of an atonement we can never accomplish. Seems like an impasse, a hopeless situation of sin. There's no way out. We're alienated from God. All the rivers of blood sacrificed haven't changed that. What could? Who could imagine it, such that they might hope for it to happen?

Gives me chills as Advent approaches... Veni, veni Emmanuel.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='carrdero' post='1384758' date='Sep 13 2007, 06:43 AM']Does the significance of the purpose of Jesus reflect a regretful God in anyway?[/quote]Regret is contrary to two attibutes of the Divinity: [url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1004.htm"]perfection[/url] (i.e. not making mistakes/needing to evolve) and [url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1009.htm"]immutability[/url] (i.e. not changing).

Edited September 13, 2007 by Mateo el Feo

[dairygirl4u2c]

i do wonder about those chinese though...
maybe it's not so indicative of human nature inherently.

[Lord Philip]

[quote name='carrdero' post='1384758' date='Sep 13 2007, 03:43 AM']Must There Be A Jesus?
How does the existence of Jesus effect the evolution of humans? Spiritually? Culturally?
Does the significance of the purpose of Jesus reflect a regretful God in anyway?
What might current life mean for humans without the sacrifice of Jesus?
What would a world without Jesus be like? Spiritually? Culturally?[/quote]

Jesus makes God the Father accessible to humanity. We all have biological life, or bios, but God has wanted to give us another kind of life....a life which is eternal and truly real. This life, or zoe, exists infinitely in God. Because of the Fall mankind has been separated from this true life, and so has not been able to have communion with God, except in the mind.

With Christ, this new life has been infused into humanity once again. When we are in Christ, this everalsting life, this fount of eternity is communicated to us, and not merely in the mental sphere, but in our entire being. This is primarily done in the Sacraments of the Holy Catholic Church where we come in real contact with Christ and this life is given to us.

I think it is very interesting that you asked about how this relates to human evolution. At first glance someone from my perspective might say, "What does that have to do with anything?" But C.S. Lewis uses the concept of evolution in this very discussion in the last chapter of "Mere Christianity" (I have gotten most of these ideas in this post from that book...you really must read it).

He said that if one looks back at the history of evolution, the changes that occur are rather unexpected and revolutionary changes. At one point, our "ancestors" kept becomming bigger and bigger animals and started to develop natural armor in their flesh. One might expect these animals to simply keep growing and developing better and better armor. Yet the thing that really did happen was that the animal shrank, lost all its armor, and became a rather feeble little naked man. Yet this man now had a brain and intelligence which made him the master of all species.

In the same way, modern people are looking for the next step in human evolution. The popular images they make are people with bigger/more efficient brains and hyper-intelligence. This is what one might naturally expect. Yet evolution throws revolutionary changes in the mix. Perhaps a bigger brain is not what we should be looking for, but something completely different.

Christ, to describe it rather crudely, is this next step in human evolution, which itself transcends biological evolution as a means of development. The new man is Christ himself. Perhaps it is not that we are to become smarter, but that we are to become able to slough off this evil human nature which causes men to kill one another and to hate and lie and steal. Perhaps we are being changed from selfish creatures to selfless creatures.

But it is beyond that....goodness is not a mere absence of evil. As Lewis describes, we are to become, through attaining this new life in Christ, a new man. A complete man. "An ageless god, a son of God" reflecting the light of the eternal, "and drenched in joy."

This comes only through Christ, and if the Bible is right, it will not happen while this world lasts, but those who choose Christ are destined to this great eternity where man is fully himself because he has "put on Christ."

God bless,

Philip

[thessalonian]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1384871' date='Sep 13 2007, 12:37 PM']i do wonder about those chinese though...
maybe it's not so indicative of human nature inherently.[/quote]


That one particular culture did not go that way is not overly problematic considering that this is only a tendancy and not a give. Sexual morality is inherent in man as well, monogamy, etc. But these too in some cultures are so corrupt as to not show the law implanted on man's hearts. I have not studied chinese culture much but it likely manifests other areas of the natural order that are less evident in other cultures. For instance in Hinduism there is evidence of the idea of the communion of the saints with regard to Nirvana. Again a distorted evidence but an evidence non the less.

A priest came to our parish a few years back from New Guniea. Now even up until the 1940's New Guniea cannabalism was quite common there. I'll bet you can guess which Catholic practice was easy to get them to comprehend and embrace. I'll give you three guesses and the first two don't count. Missionaries are trained to look for what in a culture expresses the truths of the faith and use that to help the people understand Catholicism. St. Francis Xavier was perhaps the best at this, converting nearly 1 million people in Africa and South America. He coincidently was headed for China when he got sick and died on the shores. Who knows what would have happened had he succeeded. One can also read the story of St. Patrick and also Issac Jouges (NE US and SE Canada) in this regard. Fascinating stuff.

This cultural method I think bodes well for theology of the body these days as well I think. People know about sex but they don't know the truth about sex. Sorry for the tangent.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1384883' date='Sep 13 2007, 02:04 PM']St. Francis Xavier was perhaps the best at this, converting nearly 1 million people in Africa and South America.[/quote]I think you mean Southern Asia.

As far as the Chinese comment, what is your point, dairy? I'm a little confused...

[Mateo el Feo]

Back to the original question: Must there be a Jesus? The answer is "Yes." Jesus is God. Without God, there would be no Creation.

I don't want to put words in your mouth; but, maybe the question you're getting at is, "Must there have been an Incarnation?"

[adt6247]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1384871' date='Sep 13 2007, 01:37 PM']i do wonder about those chinese though...
maybe it's not so indicative of human nature inherently.[/quote]
The Asian cultures may not have gotten that right, but they got other things -- primarily ritual, reverence, and the importance of humility. This is ingrained in their cultures. Japan especially has a culture that until recently was receptive to reverence and ritual, something many western non-Christian cultures lacked.

We can't expect every culture to get every detail right, otherwise they would be Catholic already.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Mateo el Feo' post='1384898' date='Sep 13 2007, 01:41 PM']I think you mean Southern Asia.

As far as the Chinese comment, what is your point, dairy? I'm a little confused...[/quote]


Thanks for the correction.

[dairygirl4u2c]

my point being ultimatley that if legal atonement is necessary to be reconciled with God, then jesus was be necessary.

many indian cultures, and obviously the history behind the jews, had sacrafice to the gods as their lifestyle.
that i was saying is indicative of human nature, somethign that might be inherent in us, to realize that sacrafice to the gods or God is natural. and thus the atonement legal sacrifice gains more credence.
i consider myself so messed up on the subject, exposed to so many views etc, that i'm not sure based on myself whether i believe sacrifices to the gods is necessary.

if the chinese never and don't do sacrifices to deities etc, then maybe it's not so inherent in human nature, and not part of the truth.

Edited September 13, 2007 by dairygirl4u2c