Another Works Thread

[Brother Adam]

We were saved initially by rebirth through baptism (Acts 2) and not by any work we could do.

We are being saved by God's grace by carrying out the obedience of faith (Romans 1:5, James 2:24). We must run and finish the race.

We will be saved finally at the end of time at the Second Coming and General Judgment when we will share in the life of God forever. (Revelation).

[dairygirl4u2c]

I don't believe in once saved always saved, necessarily. i mean, if you define one who falls away as not saved to begin with, then sure, whatever. but there's many who fall away, and that's in the bible.

but, how is you catholics response to these two issues:

how can one justify oneself more, when one is already justified?

how can you say you disagree with protestants, if you claim to have been justified in the past? ie the conferment story?

i answered them the best i could, but they seem like weak points in your argument.

OSAS and justification, are two different things, but are related, so keep this in mind in deciding how to respond.

perhaps analogies are in order. i bet a lot could come down to an inherent difference of opinion abotu which analogy is better.

Edited May 16, 2008 by dairygirl4u2c

[dairygirl4u2c]

i'm mostly looking for explanations, and world views.
as for passages, here's a bunch, take your pick.


[quote]Passages used to support sola fide

* Psalms 84:12: "O LORD Almighty, blessed is the man who trusts in you."
* Isaiah 64:6: "For all of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment. And all of us wither like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away."
* 2 Chronicles 20:20: "Have faith in the LORD your God and you will be upheld..."
* Matthew 7:22-23: "Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'"
* Luke 5:20:"When Jesus saw their faith, he said, "Friend, your sins are forgiven." "
* Luke 18:10-14:"Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.' "But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.' I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God."
* Luke 23:40-43: "But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong." Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom. Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise." "
* John 3:16: "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, so that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."
* John 3:18: "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son."
* John 6:28-29: "Therefore they said to Him, 'What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?' Jesus answered and said to them, 'This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.'"
* John 5:24: "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life."
* John 6:40: "For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."
* John 6:47: "I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life."
* Acts 10:43: "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins."
* Acts 16:31: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved."
* John 14:6: "Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.'"
* Acts 26:18: "...that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in me..."
* Romans 1:17-18: "Therefore the just shall live by faith. The wrath of God is indeed being revealed from heaven against every impiety and wickedness of those who suppress the truth by their wickedness."
* Romans 3:28: "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law."
* Romans 4:5: "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness."
* Romans 5:1: "...having been justified by faith..."
* Romans 10:9: "That if you shall confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead, you shall be saved."
* Romans 11:6: "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."
* Romans 14:23: "...and everything that does not come from faith is sin."
* Ephesians 2:8-10: "For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves. It is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them."
* Philippians 3:9: "and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith."
* Galatians 2:16: "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."
* Galatians 2:21: "I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain."
* Galatians 3:1-3; 9-14; 21-25: "O foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you; did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by hearing of faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now made perfect by the flesh? ... So then they who are of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. Because as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: because it is written, 'Cursed is every one that does not continue in all things that are written in the book of the law to be done'. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, 'The just shall live by faith'. And the law is not of faith: but, 'The man that does them shall live in them'. Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangs on a tree. So that the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.... Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, certainly righteousness should have been by the law. But the Scripture has concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up from the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Therefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ, so that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
* Galatians 3:8: "The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith..."
* Galatians 5:4,5: "Christ has become of no effect to you, whoever of you are justified by the law; you are fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith."
* Titus 3:5: "...he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit..."[/quote]

[quote][edit] Passages used to oppose sola fide


* Matthew 5:48 (part of the Expounding of the Law within the Sermon on the Mount): "Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect." (compare Imitatio dei)
* Matthew 7:21 (part of the Sermon on the Mount): "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."
* Matthew 7:24-27 (part of the Sermon on the Mount): "Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash."
* Matthew 12:36-37: "I tell you, on the day of judgment you will have to give an account for every careless word you utter; For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."
* Matthew 16:27: "For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done."
* Matthew 19:17: ""Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.""
* Matthew 24:10-20 (part of the Olivet discourse): "Then many will fall away, and they will betray one another and hate (don't hate, appreciate) one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because of the increase of lawlessness, the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.
* Matthew 25:31-46 (part of The Sheep and the Goats): "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.' Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?' The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.' Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.' They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
* Matthew 28:19-20a (part of the Great Commission): "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you."
* Luke 8:21: " But He answered and said to them, "My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it."
* Luke 10:25-28: "On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" "What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?" He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'" "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live.""
* John 5:29: "And will come out--those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation."
* Romans 2:6,7; 13: "For he will repay according to each one's deeds. To those who by patiently doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; for it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather, those who observe the law will be justified."
* Romans 2:16: "on the day when, according to my gospel, God, through Jesus Christ, will judge the secret thoughts of all."
* Galatians 6:7b-9: "A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up."
* 1 Corinthians 10:12: "Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall."
* 1 Corinthians 13:2-3: "And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. If I give away all my possessions, and if I hand over my body so that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing."
* 1 Corinthians 13:13: "And now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; and the greatest of these is love."
* 2 Corinthians 5:10: "For we must all appear before the judgement seat of Christ, so that each one may receive recompense, according to what he did in the body, whether good or evil."
* James 1:22: "Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says."
* James 2 (excerpts): "... What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? ... Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? ... Ye see then how that by works a man is justified,
* James 2:24: "You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone."
* Phillipians 2:12-13: "... work out your salvation with fear and trembling. For God is the one who, for his good purpose, works in you both to desire and to work."
* 1 Peter 1:17: "Now if you invoke as Father him who judges impartially according to each one's works, conduct yourselves with reverence during the time of your sojourning."
* 1 John 2:3-7: "We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did. Dear friends, I am not writing you a new command but an old one, which you have had since the beginning. This old command is the message you have heard."
* Revelation 14:12-13: "Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and hold fast to the faith of Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying, ‘Write this: Blessed are the dead who from now on die in the Lord.’ ‘Yes,’ says the Spirit, ‘they will rest from their labours, for their deeds follow them.’
* Revelation 20:13: "All the dead were judged according to their deeds."
* Revelation 22:12: "Behold, I am coming soon. I bring with me the recompense I will give to each according to his deeds."[/quote]

[dairygirl4u2c]

we have romans saying abraham was jsutified in his belief, right then and there, not a point in the past. which i had always used that for a prot argument ,but it's more of a catho.... but then we have all those "you were justified" ones.

the catholic argument has merit, though cause if you can fall away, then by choosing not to, you are cooperating with your justification. not, as prot, that you can do the work, but you're already justified, so it doesn't matter.

but again, if you're justified, how can a catholic say your cooperation is justifying? it seems more like it's preserving what's already done.

i am not sure how to explain this, every time i think it's fairly clear to me.

Edited May 16, 2008 by dairygirl4u2c

[LouisvilleFan]

I don't know what you mean by "your cooperation is justifying." That doesn't sound like the Catholic understanding of justification/sanctification.

[dairygirl4u2c]

well, granted it'd be cooperating with God's grace. as they said in trent...

[quote]Justification itself, which is not remission of sins merely, but also the sanctification and renewal of the inward man[/quote]

and as cathos always say... justification is a process.

so while i attempted the best i coudl to explain it... these two questions linger somewhat.

how can one justify oneself more, when one is already justified?

how can you say you disagree with protestants, if you claim to have been justified in the past? ie the conferment story?

[Mercy me]

I really have never understood this whole argument. To me it is simple, the more we love the Lord the more we want to please him. He has told us how to do by serving others. Service flows from the love of the Lord but it is by His grace that we are redeemed.

[JesusIsMySuperHero]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1530082' date='May 15 2008, 11:44 PM']I don't believe in once saved always saved, necessarily. i mean, if you define one who falls away as not saved to begin with, then sure, whatever. but there's many who fall away, and that's in the bible.

but, how is you catholics response to these two issues:

how can one justify oneself more, when one is already justified?

how can you say you disagree with protestants, if you claim to have been justified in the past? ie the conferment story?

i answered them the best i could, but they seem like weak points in your argument.

OSAS and justification, are two different things, but are related, so keep this in mind in deciding how to respond.

perhaps analogies are in order. i bet a lot could come down to an inherent difference of opinion abotu which analogy is better.[/quote]

I don't either.

It's the parable of th seeds really.

There are those who first believe, but because they're hearts weren't properly made ready, the seed only had very little roots to it, and when conflict arises, what growth they did receive is obliterated, and they leave the faith.

And there is also people who believe, and get caught up in the world and the things of the world, and serving God becomes just another one of those things for them, not really giving their entire lives to Jesus. Such luke warm Christians/Catholics will find that their faiths will be eventually tested, and they are either going to leave the faith, or not - like the first type!

And then, there are those who have good soil and no love for this world, and the plants they grow are outstanding. Those individuals will be saved from the moment they believe to the moment they die, because they see through all the illusions.

You see, personally, I hate (don't hate, appreciate) this world order. I hate (don't hate, appreciate) how things get nit picked to create division. I hate (don't hate, appreciate) how the economic system of the world has been set up, like the federal reserve and central banks and income tax system. I hate (don't hate, appreciate) how people are playing God more and more. I hate (don't hate, appreciate) the things of this world, and I only love God, because he knows what is best for me and all of humanity! I don't even think I know what's best for me anymore, so I always go to him when I am making decisions, just to get his input on that, because I am just a man who can make huge mistakes!

So, I am not a once saved always saved.

[dairygirl4u2c]

very respectable. especially when that's a hot christian doctrine.

i mean... i remember that one passage... "to deceive even the elect, if that were possible". so i might be able to say, if you weren't saved to begin with, then that's who fell away. but, it seems more straightforward, to say, they seemed and probably were saved.... but then they decided not to be any more

[JesusIsMySuperHero]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1531661' date='May 17 2008, 04:49 PM']very respectable. especially when that's a hot christian doctrine.

i mean... i remember that one passage... "to deceive even the elect, if that were possible". so i might be able to say, if you weren't saved to begin with, then that's who fell away. but, it seems more straightforward, to say, they seemed and probably were saved.... but then they decided not to be any more[/quote]

I think the whole thing boils down to, many are called, but few are chosen. I think all of the called were at one time believers, but they fall away because they haven't emptied themselves yet. The whole problem is pride.

Why do I need to do this, why do I need to do that.

Now some people might say to me, you don't even go to church, so I shouldn't say anything because I have a beam in my eye. Its the fact I trust so few people saying they are Christians anymore. There will be many professing they are Christ (or of Christ - i.e. Christians) who are really ravening wolves. I know I am not, because I don't call anybody to live as I live, but to at least rely on the spirit to tell them how to live, instead of following the whims of men. This can only come from emptying yourself. You can't trust your own sense and your own thoughts in this world any more, because there is so much B. S. out there! This whole evolution/theistic evolution vrs. 6-day creationism ideas is case in point. We have been bombarded by lies about how God created everything for so long, we have come to accept it as truth. . .

If God is not the author of confusion, why did he say he created the world in 6-days, and not 15 billion years? Why didn't he just outright say that? Why did Moses, who was moved by the holy spirit said there was a day and night in each day of the 6-days of the first chapter of Genesis? Millions of years have lots of days and nights, not one morning and one evening!

So, we have an impass, because there are people who see things much differently than other people, because there are those who have emptied themselves, because I know I am not smart enough to figure it all out, so I rely on the holy spirit to help me understand the very essence of things, and there are others who are - I am so smart, God made me smart, and you're just dumb!

[dairygirl4u2c]

i don't think it's wrong that you don't go to church necessarily. i'd think you'd should go sometimes, if you found the right place. i had been thinking about that today. there's something to be said about going, even if you don't feel like it, when you should, but there's also something to say about just going through the motions etc pointlessly.

btw, i disagree with you about evolution, but i do not think it's fully proven enough to say it's like the earth is not the center of the galaxy (as many christians once insisted was the biblical answer) or even super close to that, just proven a whole lot more than most creationists have a shadow of a doubt about. i have a bunch of web info if you care to see it.

[dairygirl4u2c]

anyways, i feel this is being ignored by catholics.


well, granted it'd be cooperating with God's grace. as they said in trent...

QUOTE
Justification itself, which is not remission of sins merely, but also the sanctification and renewal of the inward man


and as cathos always say... justification is a process.

so while i attempted the best i coudl to explain it... these two questions linger somewhat.

how can one justify oneself more, when one is already justified?

how can you say you disagree with protestants, if you claim to have been justified in the past? ie the conferment story?

[dairygirl4u2c]

also in case you've given up on the other evolution threads that i see you were referring to and talking in, now that i have just looked,,, i would recommend this. just take a look, that's all:

[quote]inks for things on traisitional fossils

[url="http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-transitional/part2a.html"]http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-transitional/part2a.html[/url]

[url="http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/d2700.html"]http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/d2700.html[/url]

[url="http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/"]http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/[/url]

[url="http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/"]http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/[/url]

[url="http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/id/program.html#ch05"]http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/id/program.html#ch05[/url]

[url="http://news.softpedia.com/news/Top-10-Exti...ans-62131.shtml"]http://news.softpedia.com/news/Top-10-Exti...ans-62131.shtml[/url]

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_evolution"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_evolution[/url][/quote]

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1530707' date='May 16 2008, 07:10 PM']well, granted it'd be cooperating with God's grace. as they said in trent...

and as cathos always say... justification is a process.[/quote]

Well, Trent didn't come up with it. That's just part of Tradition.

When have Catholics taught that justification is a process? I thought sanctification was the process following justification.

The way I see it, we can call it whatever we want, as long as we're going to Heaven.

Edited May 19, 2008 by LouisvilleFan

[dairygirl4u2c]

just talking to cathos talk about it, i hear process a lot, but also...
[url="http://www.google.com/search?q=%22justification+is+a+process&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a"]http://www.google.com/search?q=%22justific...lient=firefox-a[/url]


[quote]This disposition, or preparation, is followed by Justification itself, which is not remission of sins merely, but also the sanctification and renewal of the inward man, through the voluntary reception of the grace, and of the gifts, whereby man of unjust becomes just, and of an enemy a friend, that so he may be an heir according to hope of life everlasting. (Council of Trent, 6th Session, ch. Vii)[/quote]
[url="http://ffaideas.wordpress.com/2007/09/17/catholic-doctrine-of-justification/"]http://ffaideas.wordpress.com/2007/09/17/c...-justification/[/url]

Edited May 19, 2008 by dairygirl4u2c