Another Works Thread

[dairygirl4u2c]

so both catho and prots requires works, their theology, at least the good prots. prots, at least those who don't follow OSAS, would say that works flow from your salvation that you at one point have. cathos i think don't disagree right? just that you can lose it is important.
so cathos say to increase in sanctification is the process justification. these prots would say it's not justification, but that you are justified in the present fully, at least until you fall away, again for those prots only. but they say you have to have the works at evidence of faith.

now.... what exactly is justification? it seems like you could say if you are increasing, then you are justifying being saved in that you have the evidence. and it seems like at some level at least you yourself are justified, even if it's not needed per se.

i guess it matters at the level most people talk about, that cathos say you need the words to justify and prots say ya don't. so it might be significant.

but it seems like the theologies don't necessarily contradict. i think most of the works debate hinges on vaguely defined doctrines, making things complicated.

thoughts?

[dairygirl4u2c]

or put another way maybe, you could be justified as per jesus, but, you in your own right are also being justified. just a way to reconcile maybe.

personally, i follow the traditional catholic understanding more. but not completely. i've never really understood, or agreed with legal atonement.

[OneForTruth]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1384444' date='Sep 12 2007, 05:37 PM']so both catho and prots requires works, their theology, at least the good prots. prots, at least those who don't follow OSAS, would say that works flow from your salvation that you at one point have. cathos i think don't disagree right? just that you can lose it is important.
so cathos say to increase in sanctification is the process justification. these prots would say it's not justification, but that you are justified in the present fully, at least until you fall away, again for those prots only. but they say you have to have the works at evidence of faith.

now.... what exactly is justification? it seems like you could say if you are increasing, then you are justifying being saved in that you have the evidence. and it seems like at some level at least you yourself are justified, even if it's not needed per se.

i guess it matters at the level most people talk about, that cathos say you need the words to justify and prots say ya don't. so it might be significant.

but it seems like the theologies don't necessarily contradict. i think most of the works debate hinges on vaguely defined doctrines, making things complicated.

thoughts?[/quote]

Justification is an event. This event is shown in great detail in the book of Romans...chapters 3 through 5. The meaning cannot be missed - it is when one is set right - declared righeous. We get Christ's death and ALSO His righteousness. Once a person has been truly justified, they will be saved forever...

Ro 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and [b]whom he justified, them he also glorified[/b].

Justification is a past event in the life of the believer...a passing from death to life, we become dead tot he law, and a new creature...

Ro 5:1 Therefore, [b]having been justified [/b]by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Ro 5:9 Much more then, [b]having now been justified [/b]by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
1Co 6:11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you [b]were justified [/b]in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

This happens by faith - faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God...

1Pe 1:23 for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.
Jas 1:18 In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures.

Romans 10 explains this clearly.

In Christ

[OneForTruth]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1384508' date='Sep 12 2007, 07:17 PM']or put another way maybe, you could be justified as per jesus, but, you in your own right are also being justified. just a way to reconcile maybe.

personally, i follow the traditional catholic understanding more. but not completely. i've never really understood, or agreed with legal atonement.[/quote]

The language of Romans shows this to be a legal transaction quite clearly...you have words like jurisdiction (Rom 7:1), Judge, law, remission, impute, charge (Rom 8:1), condemnation, justification. Romans 2:25-26 explains to us how God is just to forgive sin because His Son was put forth as a protitiation for sin...He bore our sin and the death penalty along with that sin...SO THAT God could be not only a justifier of the ungodly but also JUST IN DOING SO. This all shows the very heartbeat of legal justification of the sinner having been forgiven of sin and given the righteousness of Christ...this is the foundation for our sanctification.

Romans 3:25-26 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: [b]that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus[/b].

Edited October 12, 2007 by OneForTruth

[jeffpugh]

If you wanna get on board with the Catholic view of Justification, Google "Trent justification". You should get an article right from the vatican website.

[OneForTruth]

[quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1400969' date='Oct 11 2007, 08:26 PM']If you wanna get on board with the Catholic view of Justification, Google "Trent justification". You should get an article right from the vatican website.[/quote]

No, thanks

[mortify]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1384444' date='Sep 12 2007, 05:37 PM']now.... what exactly is justification? it seems like you could say if you are increasing, then you are justifying being saved in that you have the evidence. and it seems like at some level at least you yourself are justified, even if it's not needed per se.[/quote]

Dairy, I actually think our understanding of Justification is more like what you mentioned of protestants, we believe Justification is conferred on us, and can be lost when we knowingly and willingly commit a grave sin.

In the Catechism sections 1987 through 1995 specifically address the doctrine of Justification, there is no mention of "getting more justified," via sanctification, where did hear that?

[dairygirl4u2c]

this is from the council of trent.

[quote]Justification itself, which is not remission of sins merely, but also the sanctification and renewal of the inward man[/quote]

read the canons from there too. they will tell you that your conferment theory is wrong, according to the CC, but is a process.

[dairygirl4u2c]

what i wrote is in line with the council of trent for the fundamental concepts.

for what they did not address, the rest is common catholic thought.

[mortify]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1401004' date='Oct 11 2007, 09:18 PM']this is from the council of trent.
read the canons from there too. they will tell you that your conferment theory is wrong, according to the CC, but is a process.[/quote]

In that quote the Church is simply reaffirming the fact that Justification is not simply "snow covering a dunghill" but an actual renewal of our innerself.

As for my conferment theory, which is actually the teaching of the Church:
Section 1992:[color="#0000FF"] "Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justitifcation is conferred in baptism, the sacrament of faith."[/color]

This is echoed in the council of Trent:
[color="#0000FF"]"Of this Justification the causes are these: the final cause indeed is the glory of God and of Jesus Christ, and life everlasting; while the efficient cause is a merciful God who washes and sanctifies gratuitously, signing, and anointing with the holy Spirit of promise, who is the pledge of our inheritance; but the meritorious cause is His most beloved only-begotten, our Lord Jesus Christ, who, when we were enemies, for the exceeding charity wherewith he loved us, merited Justification for us by His most holy Passion on the wood of the cross, and made satisfaction for us unto God the Father; the instrumental cause is the sacrament of baptism, which is the sacrament of faith, without which (faith) no man was ever justified; lastly, the alone formal cause is the justice of God, not that whereby He Himself is just, but that whereby He maketh us just, that, to wit, with which we being endowed by Him, are renewed in the spirit of our mind, and we are not only reputed, but are truly called, and are, just, receiving justice within us, each one according to his own measure, which the Holy Ghost distributes to every one as He wills, and according to each one's proper disposition and co-operation."[/color]

Quite beautiful, and clearly justification is merited by Christ, and not our own works. The "process" is what scripture calls "enduring to the end" or "working out your salvation," it means being receptive to grace and living in the Holy Spirit so that one may continue to live in a state of justification prior our final judgement. I do not see it as something we work for, or something we eventually merit, if you believe that is mentioned somewhere in the council of Trent or the catechism you're going to have to point it out.


God bless

[mortify]

Dairy, I think I know what you're referring to:

[color="#0000FF"]Having, therefore, been thus justified, and made the friends and domestics of God, advancing from virtue to virtue, they are renewed, as the Apostle says, day by day; that is, by mortifying the members of their own flesh, and by presenting them as instruments of justice unto sanctification, they, through the observance of the commandments of God and of the Church, faith co-operating with good works, increase in that justice which they have received through the grace of Christ, and are still further justified, as it is written; He that is just, let him be justified still; and again, Be not afraid to be justified even to death; and also, Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. And this increase of justification holy Church begs, when she prays, "Give unto us, O Lord, increase of faith, hope, and charity."[/color]

This is not doing good deeds to eventually merit justification, or slowly increasing our level of justification. This simply refers to freely cooperating with God's grace to strengthen and solidify our justified state, which Christ merited for us on the Cross.

[dairygirl4u2c]

the conferment theory does help argue against people who use all those "having been justified" verses in the bible.

and it's a reasonable position to have given what it says at trent etc.

i think it's weird to say that you're justifying yourself when you're already justified, but i can see how that could be argued.

both sides require santification then then, the question is what it does.... i said this before, and i say it again.

i'm glad i found this thread on google. i didn't understand how catholics argue giving those verses from the bible. i couldn't find a catholic response until i found this on google.
i guess i set the seed for me to later find, and understand. God always seems to be giving me new understandings.

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote]This is not doing good deeds to eventually merit justification, or slowly increasing our level of justification.[/quote]

slowly increasing is what i had misunderstood.

[dairygirl4u2c]

i also see how catholics can say that their works are by jesus and not them... to add to justification.

ie "because of jesus, this work justifies"... ie, jesus justified you, and so anything you do in sanctification will be justified because you are justified.

but, if that's the case, where exactly is the disagreement with protestants? well, now that i think with this new mindset... maybe it's.... the dung of a person is not justified, until they change it, even if they believe in Jesus.

Edited May 12, 2008 by dairygirl4u2c

[JesusIsMySuperHero]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1384444' date='Sep 12 2007, 05:37 PM']now.... what exactly is justification? it seems like you could say if you are increasing, then you are justifying being saved in that you have the evidence. and it seems like at some level at least you yourself are justified, even if it's not needed per se.[/quote]

Justification is not increased by works. Justification is the initial step in Salvation. You believe in Jesus Christ's death on the cross and that atones for your sins forever, period, end of story.

The next step is - of course, works and fruits unto repentance. You respond to God's great gift of salvation by confessing to God every sin you have ever committed, and ask God for your forgiveness, because you have faith in that salvation that he is offering.

The next step is of course, learning about God and getting closer and closer to God through sanctification, which is a life long process. Anybody who says they are as close as they can be with God is really a liar, there is always room to spend more time with God, and learn his will for you. He will then direct you, leading you down the paths he wants you to be involved in! Each person will have a completely different walk for all other Christians, and God will only put on your shoulders what you can carry.

Once you are saved - justified through the blood of Jesus, then what happens next is - trials and tribulations, perfecting you as a saint, learning to listen to the voice of God, and then being involved in the ministry he wants you involved in. Once you're there, then the next step is Warfare. You start taking the stands you need to take, and then you have to fight off all those as you stand for what God wants. Whether they believe you or not doesn't really matter, as at this level, you are throughly a God pleaser, and God trusts you to take stands and never back down, as you haven't through the trials and tribulations. But all of these first come from simple faith first. You can't please God without faith, and faith leads to even greater faith.

For instance, nine years ago - I believed in God's gift of salvation when he sent his son to the earth to die for our sins. I had the faith to ask God for forgiveness of my sins, and they were forgiven of me as I repented and later baptized. That small amount of faith in God kept me in his word, despite all the voices crying out against the Bible, and that small amount of faith has then kept me alive when some of the most dangerous Satanists in the world who would have me dead and buried at the young age of 34, because I know God is stronger than they are, and will ensure that I am defended against their onslaughts. Faith, leads to faith, leads to faith - all my works are based on the faith I first had. I am not saved by my works, but my works declare that I am saved!