Mother Teresa And Universalism

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[quote name='adt6247' post='1383468' date='Sep 11 2007, 11:37 AM']Anyone who is genuinely exposed to Christ's church[/quote]

I was not exposed to an actual catholic church until near the end of my decision to convert. Authority issues, patristic writings and a quote from Sean (l_d) pretty much did it for me.

Authority issue- many different denominations all claiming something different, the idea that my salvation was dependant on either finding the right guru among the gurus or using my limited intel with an ancient book really worried me. It got to the point that if I was not catholic I would have been a pseudo agnostic. Similar to Anomaly. Not angry because people have sinned, but rather convinced that we have all screwed up theology beyond the point of knowing truth.

Patristics-Augustine mostly, but otherwise knowing the depth of the theology, the importance of unity and the sacraments.

L_D, while attempting to spank me on open theism. Wrote



[quote]...I believe that something that is true is intrinsically rational. Even though the ultimate subject matter of Christian theology is beyond our threshold of reason, theology as such exists in a continuum and thus conforms to the structures of rationality. The intrinsic relationship between truth and reason, even truths of faith and natural reason, is not severed.
Now since Christianity is not merely a set of postulates but is in fact a historical reality rooted in actual historical events, it follows logically to my mind that Christian belief as seen through a historical context must have an essential continuity otherwise it can rightly be described as absurd.
Therefore, a doctrine or system of theology which fundamentally undermines the historical continuity of christian belief cannot coexist with the assertion that Christianity is true. One might be able to suggest that their particular brand of Christian belief is true, but then they are speaking of a personal system of belief, not a revelation which transcends the individual and is rooted in historical events. As disrespectful as it may sound, I see persons such as Dr. Boyd to be less like Christian teachers and more like gurus who happen to use the Bible.

Just so you know there is much more I have to say regarding this point. I hope that it has been made sufficiently nonetheless...[/quote]

[dairygirl4u2c]

i think it's funny that amoungest the in the knows of christianity, that someone like mother teresa can become the source of heated debate. step back and look at the situtaion protestants.... it's mother teresa for God's sake. only shows how far some people are willing to go to argue their position when it's really absurd to anyone who's looking on.

[dairygirl4u2c]

i disagree with L_D's post from rev though. a personal belief system it may be, but that doesn't mean it doenst contain much truth, even organic truth.

[thessalonian]

Both of these individuals that were saying that Mother T was a universalist have Dr. before their names. Dr. Jason Carlson and Dr. Ron Carlson. Makes you wonder what kind of Doctorates protestants are putting out if they don't even know the english language. By the way rev, this was on Jan Markell's show. If anyone wants to listen and send her a comment it's at:

[url="http://www.olivetreeviews.org/radio/mp3/"]http://www.olivetreeviews.org/radio/mp3/[/url]

September 8, 2007 - Hour 2
Dr. Ron Carlson, Jason Carlson,

Ron can be reached at:

'ron@christianministriesintl.org' and jason at 'jason@christianministriesintl.org'

The email addresses are public.

They did the old resacrificing Christ in the Eucharist and Catholicism is works based salvation as well tap dance distortion.

Edited September 11, 2007 by thessalonian

[LouisvilleFan]

Okay, this thread devolved into Protesting bashing and hardly addressed the original question. How should we respond to these quotes that are allegedly from Mother Teresa? I liked the interpretation offered by Archaeology cat. Maybe that's not how Momma T intended it, but I suspect that she had to be careful about the subject of evangelism considering her presence in a mostly Muslim and Hindu society. Plus, most of these people they ministered too were probably too sick to be concerned about their religious affiliation. Their ministry was focused on showing Christ's love through their presence and caring, rather than preaching.

Another possibility is that she never said these things. Has anyone even verified these are true quotes?

When someone raised this question over on Relevant Magazine, I responded with a number of quotes related to the Eucharist and other things that left no room for doubt about her Catholicism, just to show that whether the quotes are true or not, they are almost surely taken out of context.

However, I wasn't able to find out specifically when (or if) she said these things. Not that it's keeping me up at night, but it would be nice to know for future reference

Edited September 11, 2007 by LouisvilleFan

[thessalonian]

What do you call protestant bashing? They don't understand the english language and they distort the Catholic faith ad nausium. They need a few lumps for this. Have you even paid attention to the slamming of Mother T that has gone on?

Edited September 11, 2007 by thessalonian

[thessalonian]

Looks like she said this:

"If in coming face to face with God we accept Him in our lives, then we are converting. We become a better Hindu, a better Muslim, a better Catholic, a better whatever we are."

I don't see a problem with it. Clearly in context the better means a more "Christian" Mulem or Hindu or whatever because the context is when we come face to face with God who is truth and Christianity is truth. I don't see it as saying that they become better at what is false in their religions.

On many websited the part about coming face to face with God is left out. It seems the context is one of being drawn in to Christianity rather than proselytized in.

Is 2
[2] It shall come to pass in the latter days
that the mountain of the house of the LORD
shall be established as the highest of the mountains,
and shall be raised above the hills;
and all the nations shall flow to it,
[3] and many peoples shall come, and say:
"Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD,
to the house of the God of Jacob;
that he may teach us his ways
and that we may walk in his paths."
For out of Zion shall go forth the law,
and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

Edited September 11, 2007 by thessalonian

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if you are saying that I am proto bashing you are wrong, I was only explaining what te proto usage of that word could mean that would make sense of the radio show.



[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1383504' date='Sep 11 2007, 12:15 PM']i disagree with L_D's post from rev though. a personal belief system it may be, but that doesn't mean it doenst contain much truth, even organic truth.[/quote]

It can contain "some" truth, but if it does not reconcile itself with the historic revelation than that aspect of it that is out of sorts is not revealed truth and thus wrong. And in being wrong it can cause harm. The issue we were debating, open theism, is an example of this and how it can influence wrongly as well.

At least, thats how I think L_D would answer. I linked him to this thread, lets hope he responds.

[LouisvilleFan]

This is what I was referring to as Protestant bashing:

[quote name='Revprodeji' post='1383494' date='Sep 11 2007, 01:03 PM']Authority issue- many different denominations all claiming something different, the idea that my salvation was dependant on either finding the right guru among the gurus or using my limited intel with an ancient book really worried me.[/quote]

Protestants believe salvation is based on faith alone, obtained through grace alone. We all share the very fundamentals of Christianity (the Apostle's Creed, the Trinity, divinity and humanity of Christ). Other doctrines do not affect one's salvation as we are all Christian. So, why misrepresent Protestantism by saying that salvation is dependent on "finding the right guru"? Only cults teach that.

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1383545' date='Sep 11 2007, 02:06 PM']Both of these individuals that were saying that Mother T was a universalist have Dr. before their names. Dr. Jason Carlson and Dr. Ron Carlson. Makes you wonder what kind of Doctorates protestants are putting out if they don't even know the english language.[/quote]

The two Dr. Carlsons are wrong about the definition of universalism, but every person makes those kinds of mistakes. To criticize the quality of all Protestant seminaries for their error is unfair. We can disagree with Protestants while maintaining a spirit of mutual respect, seeking to learn from them as much as we long for them to learn from us.

You guys probably didn't intend these comments to be taken too seriously. I was just a little frustrated that there wasn't much real discussion about the actual question.

Edited September 11, 2007 by LouisvilleFan

[thessalonian]

"To criticize the quality of all Protestant seminaries for their error is unfair. "

Guess you missed where Rev said he was taught this false definition of universalism at a protestant seminary. It may well even be the one the Carlson's came from. I'll check that out.

[thessalonian]

"Ron Carlson is president of Christian Ministries International. A graduate of Bethel College "

Yep I was right and the son, Jason, teaches there.

I am having a little back and forth email conversation with Jason. He won't admit anything of course. He is going to send me a free dvd.

Edited September 11, 2007 by thessalonian

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1383563' date='Sep 11 2007, 02:37 PM']They don't understand the english language and they distort the Catholic faith ad nausium. They need a few lumps for this. Have you even paid attention to the slamming of Mother T that has gone on?[/quote]

Many of the Protestant seminarians I've known understood Catholicism very well, but they still disagreed for various reasons. I think what is often misunderstood is how everything is Christ-centric, but the book knowledge about Catholicism is far more accurate than what Protestant (especially Baptist) preachers would spew forth in the past.

As for the slamming of Mother Teresa, everything I've read from Protestants is supportive of her. Relevant Magazine put out a good [url="http://www.relevantmagazine.com/god_article.php?id=7408"]little article[/url] on her book.

Edited September 11, 2007 by LouisvilleFan

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1383706' date='Sep 11 2007, 06:33 PM']Guess you missed where Rev said he was taught this false definition of universalism at a protestant seminary. It may well even be the one the Carlson's came from. I'll check that out.[/quote]

So, the definition of universalism is relative. Interesting.

[thessalonian]

I find it extremely funny that one who has doudts about there own salvation could be called a universalist.

Hey, I just thought of something. I'll bet you could catch some protestants who said that the Vatican said all non-catholics were going to hell in that document by the CDF a month or so ago to also say that Catholicism is inclusivist. Go to definition in the second post above. They would be contradicting themselves. Edited September 11, 2007 by thessalonian

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Louisville fan,

the quote you took

[quote]Authority issue- many different denominations all claiming something different, the idea that my salvation was dependant on either finding the right guru among the gurus or using my limited intel with an ancient book really worried me.[/quote]

Was not in context. This is the primary reason for my converstion process. It isnt protestant bashing when I was a protestant when I was playing with this concept.

Btw, Soteriological concepts are not universal among protestants. You cite

[quote]Protestants believe salvation is based...
on faith alone,[/quote]

They will quote that, but ask a calvinist and an evangelical to explain this.

[quote]obtained through grace alone...[/quote]
-How is this grace obtained, is it by our free will? Can we lose that grace? What exactly is that grace? I was in a spirtual formation group last year where half the group did not believe grace had anything to do with salvation. But rather was just us being kind to others and showing mercy.

[quote]We all share the very fundamentals of Christianity[/quote]
-yet we dont agree on what is fundamental. The argument is flawed. Budge does this alot. She will cite things she agrees with someone else as essential and the things they disagree she will say is not. Baptism is a great example here, in form and purpose and need this is debated heavy within protestantism.

[quote]the Apostle's Creed,[/quote]
-for a large part of the evangelical and free church groups the idea of a creed is considered apostacy to the gospel. It is against the "bible alone"

[quote]the Trinity,[/quote]
-the problem with some spirit christologies, or what we jokingly called the "spirit is a puppy dog" issue. Most protestant theology completely ignores the holy spirit. We focus on jesus is my buddy. You could argue that they only have christological worship. Not the trinity. Regardless of the argument in worship services the songs are about jesus. Christocentric is good, but ignoring pneumatology is wrong.

And there are some free churches that believe the trinity is extra-biblical and thus wrong. Try to explain to them we need to baptise in the name of Father-Son-HS

[quote]divinity and humanity of Christ.[/quote]
-historical Jesus movement? Jesus Seminar?

[quote]Other doctrines do not affect one's salvation as we are all Christian. So, why misrepresent Protestantism by saying that salvation is dependent on "finding the right guru"? Only cults teach that.[/quote]

I have not spoke to you much before, and I dont feel the need to give my resume. But I am more the qualified to give an accurate description of protestant theological issues. I have been mentored by some big names and I am still active in that community and with reading. Unlike many converts I have not burned those bridges. I do not say this to promote myself, or to speak negative to you; but to let you know this is accurate and not bashing.