Homosexuality And Hope

[infinitelord1]

Semalsia,

I am assuming that you believe that because someone has SSA that they are gay. You are also saying that no homosexual has ever converted to heterosexual. One of the things that I have learned is that some people, who experience/experienced homosexual attraction, found out that they were capable of having a normal, happy heterosexual life. So your claim is untrue. Allthough I will say that the success rate is low. Some people are able to shed homosexual tenencies while others still have them but learn they have tendencies for the opposite sex as well. Its not all black and white.

[Semalsia]

Aloysius,

I'm sorry if you found my words hurtful. They really weren't meant as such, quite the opposite actually. I was hoping to prevent others from getting hurt.

I don't quite understand how you could interpret my posts so that you'd think I was being discriminatory, prejudiced, bigoted and somehow comparable to a racist. Hopefully I'll be able to convince you that I'm none of those. I'll try to explain what my actual views are.

First of all, I'd probably be the last person to tell someone not to do something. So if people with SSA want to change their sexual orientation they are free to try. I do believe they are making a big mistake and will in the end fail, but I wouldn't stand in their way. I would never say that people don't have a right to explore their sexuality, and in fact I would encourage it.

Second, I have never said that gays should or must engage in homosexual sex. I have absolutely no problem with those who wish to be celibate. And I wouldn't say that someone [i]must[/i] do something, anyway. Especially when talking about sex.

And third, I have never said that gays have no right to have a family, children or a wife/husband. Actually, in other threads I've been saying pretty much the opposite: everyone should have a right for those things. I don't even oppose someone with SSA marrying someone of the opposite sex.

And I would also never belittle anyone for wanting to have marriage and family. Why would I? I want a family too! But you have to understand, and this is crucial, that all the things that those with SSA might possibly want in a heterosexual relationship is also available for them in a homosexual relationship. They don't have to choose between higher and lower desires. They can have it all.


What happened when those ex-gays ended up being not so ex? Its my humble opinion that those 0.5% that actually did change their sexual orientation were either bisexual to begin with or are now simply deceiving themselves. That's why you see them failing: they never succeeded in the first place. And the longer they keep deceiving themselves, the harder they will fall when it all comes back to their face. I do believe those striving for change are deeply, deeply hurting themselves.

[Aloysius]

Your attitude is part of a larger aparatus of pressure exerted on people with homosexual tendencies to practice homosexuality because it "would be a huge mistake" to not do it. Even here you are saying, basically, that a man with SSA is making a terrible mistake simply for desiring heterosexual attraction. I understand that you think you are avoiding the type of position that causes homosexual pains, but you fail to understand the true causes of pain in homosexuality; it comes when one's higher desires come into conflict with their baser passions.

No, they cannot have the same thing in a homosexual relationship. They can simulate it in many ways, but they cannot have it: they cannot have the biological reality. And believe me, that's a big part of the higher level of desire that comes into conflict with their baser passions: they want to have one whom they love whom they can create a child with, a child which will spring directly from that love (not from a laboratory), a child which will be part of one and part of the other manifested in the flesh.

And I admit that many "ex-gays" become "not-so-ex". As I said, their reversions basically spring out of the fact that they were dishonest with themselves for so long, declaring themselves to have become "ex-gay" much the same way a person who believes in OSAS might declare himself to be "saved"; when someone gets into that type of dishonesty with self they set themselves up for a big crash eventually. The "ex-gay" truly develops heterosexual passions, the same way the "saved" truly develops a relationship with Christ; it is when the "ex-gay" tries to ignore that he might still have homosexual attractions or when the "saved" tries to ignore that he still might have sinful tendencies that these people get themselves into the trouble of repression.

The success rate and eradicating all homosexual attractions is small. The success rate at developing heterosexual attraction is much higher. Why? Because every human body contains the components necessary to be attracted to the opposite sex (assumedly, they all contain the components necessary to develop attraction to the same sex too). Then why do they revert? Because they were dishonest with themselves; but they were not dishonest about their attractions to the opposite sex, those were real and they truly did develop those; what they were dishonest with themselves about was whether or not their homosexual attractions still existed as well. When they are honest with themselves (and with their spouse) about that, their temptation becomes exactly the same as any heterosexual married person's temptation to cheat with the opposite sex.

Your 0.5% number is inaccurate and biased. NARTH reports about 1/3 success rate at developing normal heterosexual passions (though some of those might, in my opinion, be deceiving themselves about whether they still have homosexual temptations to deal wtih) and about 1/3 success rate at developing some heterosexual attraction while still having homosexual attractions. That's 2/3 that have a real shot at following the dream they desire; that many homosexuals desire but are afraid to admit they do. I don't think you can disqualify those who end up "backsliding" (to use a protestant term") as not having a chance; had they been honest with themselves, they really could have made their life work.

Indeed, there are even some of these scandal stories about a husband engaging in a homosexual affair that end in the wife forgiving him and the marriage continuing; why? because the husband that cheated on the wife was not being dishonest in his attraction to the wife, it was that he also had attraction to other men as well. It shouldn't be so scandalous; all husbands have baser-passion attractions to women who are not their wife, so these ones have baser-passion attractions to men who are not their wife.

[kenrockthefirst]

Here's my take, FWIW: a biological inclination to homosexuality is real in the same way that there are biological bases for certain kinds of diseases, e.g. sickle cell anemia.

I'm not saying that homosexuals or those with homosexual tendencies are "diseased." Rather, in both cases, such biological predispositions are the result of the Fall. It's no good to say, "God created me gay, and everything that God created is good so being gay is all right." Everything God created [i]is[/i] good as God [i]intended[/i], but what God [i]intended[/i] has been warped or corrupted as a result of the Fall.

Death, disease, and genetic disorders such as Down Syndrome are not what God intended for us. He can use them, as He can weave all things together toward the attainment of His ultimate purpose, but they are not His ideal or what He hoped for us.

The bottom line is that one may very well be "homosexual" with no chance of being "cured." That does not mean that one cannot live a life of love and happiness and fulfillment. It does mean that one can't have the [i]same kind of life[/i] he or she might have had if he or she weren't homosexual.

[Semalsia]

[quote]I am assuming that you believe that because someone has SSA that they are gay.[/quote]

I use SSA, gay, homosexual, etc as synonyms.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='Farsight one' post='1383973' date='Sep 12 2007, 01:13 AM']Read and learn: [url="http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/neuro/neuro98/202s98-paper2/Bodian2.html"]http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/neuro/neur...r2/Bodian2.html[/url]

The evidence to suggest that homosexuality is not a choice is growing and growing and growing every day. The evidence against is paltry at best.

While some have successfully reversed their orientation, I would suggest that they were actually straight to begin with, and became homosexual due to environment and this reversal therapy corrected them. These reversal therapy programs have a horrendous success rate either way. and, among the success rate, there is an extremely high reversion rate(go back to gay)

No, there is no definitive proof yet, but the evidence is strong.

Question - why do some of you seem to want it to be a choice so much? Whether or not it is a choice does not effect their ability to follow God or to not sin. It's the activity that's bad, not the orientation.[/quote]

Obviously you didn't read the link I posted in the title post.

It is not genetic.

The desire might not be a choice, but how people act on a desire is. There is nothing biologically to give a human a desire to be with the same sex.

[b]Attraction is [u]developed[/u][/b], it is [i]not exactly [/i]a choice, but we can change if we want to. People can change their desires, it takes work, but it can be done.

We live in a time where some studies are bias and are done looking to prove a point instead of truely scientific. There is a lot of grant money in the various studies, and the money can and does taint the data. Many statistics are lies... for those of you who don't know, any intent to deceive is a lie. Graph range can give a false message if someone is not critical in their thinking when looking at it.

Without being able to research the methods and researchers, studies are not more valuable than someone's opinion. So many people have hidden agendas and it boggles my mind almost on a daily basis of why so many people lie over the smallest things... I have caught so many people in lies, it's almost laughable... highly educated normal looking and acting people lie over the strangest things.