Homosexuality And Hope

[ironmonk]

The link:
[url="http://www.cathmed.org/publications/homosexuality.htm"]http://www.cathmed.org/publications/homosexuality.htm[/url]

The topics:
CONTENTS

I CONSIDERATIONS

Introduction

1) Not born that way

2) Same sex attraction as a symptom

3) Same-sex attraction is preventable

4) At-risk, not predestined

5) Therapy

6) Goal of therapy

II RECOMMENDATIONS

1) Ministry to individuals experiencing same-sex attraction

2) The role of the priest

3) Catholic medical professionals

4) Teachers in Catholic institutions

5) Catholic families

6) The Catholic community

7) Bishops

8) Hope


God Bless,
ironmonk

[Semalsia]

Pretty much all the claims in that article are untrue.

Here is some actual information:
[url="http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_caus3.htm"]Is homosexuality genetically determined?[/url]
[url="http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_repar.htm"]Can gays become ex-gays?[/url]
[url="http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_exod1.htm"]Estimates of success rates (of reparative therapy)[/url]

It is quite clear that:
1) Homosexuality has a genetic factor
2) Whether someone is a homosexual is determined at very early childhood or earlier
3) Reparative therapy doesn't work
4) No other form of treatment works either
5) No homosexual has ever changed into heterosexual
6) Reparative therapy can be mentally and emotionally damaging to the patient


A quatation from the first article I linked to:
"What is know is that it takes effect before the child reaches age 5. Child psychologists can interview children at that age and determine with excellent accuracy who will grow up to be gay."

[Anomaly]

Semalsia,
And the articles you posted are adhering to 'untrue' as well, as they claim to follow 'conclusions' that are just another set of theories and alternative choices.

The moral logic the articles used are laughable to anyone who read it with an open mind. If one is defending 'gayness' regardless of logic, it's fine. If one is hating 'gayness', regardless of logic, it's going to be rejected anyway. Let's try to look at the logic with an open mind.

The first article claims that if homosexuality is gene driven, then God caused it because He wanted to. It uses that 'logic' to discredit 'religious conservatives' by telling them that God doesn't hate 'gayness' if He is creating gays by programing their genes.
Hmmmm.....

Let's use the example of diabetes since the article brought it up as justification that gays can't defeat their SSA, anymore than diabetics can defeat the way their body process sugar.

First off, one is purely a physical trait, the other is a behavioral trait. Two different things. Secondly, a diabetic can choose behaviors, such as proper eating or taking medicine, that affect the effects of their genetically caused condition. A person who has SSA is not insane, and is assumed to have the same mental capacity as a the average diabetic. This is where the factors involving psychological development come in. I'm not an expert, so I'm not going to argue that psychologists can change the amount of same sex attraction the person feels, anymore than a medical doctor can reprogram the fundamental digestive system of a diabetic.

However, the SSA person, like the diabetic, can choose behaviors that affect how to act based on their sexaul attractions. It's unfortunate that a diabetic cannot eat Snicker bars whenever they want.

Humans are not merely 'base' animals, at the mercy of unwilled instinct. We humans have mental will and capacity far above animals, and we choose how to react and behave in reaction to whatever urges, attractions, and insticts we feel.

So regardless of whether SSA is genetic or not, our choice in behaviors is not beyond our control. The controversy is not whether God created people with SSA or not, the controversy is about which set of behaviors society and individuals wishes to choose.

[Groo the Wanderer]

[quote name='Semalsia' post='1383327' date='Sep 11 2007, 07:51 AM']It is quite clear that:
1) Homosexuality has a genetic factor
2) Whether someone is a homosexual is determined at very early childhood or earlier
3) Reparative therapy doesn't work
4) No other form of treatment works either
5) No homosexual has ever changed into heterosexual
6) Reparative therapy can be mentally and emotionally damaging to the patient[/quote]

This is absolutely bogus and a load of smelly carp. Read this: [url="http://www.newswithviews.com/psychology/psychology2.htm"]http://www.newswithviews.com/psychology/psychology2.htm[/url]
It's written by a man...that used to be homosexual, but learned to overcome his SSA and lives a normal, happy heterosexual lifestyle.

[Semalsia]

[quote]The first article claims that if homosexuality is gene driven, then God caused it because He wanted to. It uses that 'logic' to discredit 'religious conservatives' by telling them that God doesn't hate 'gayness' if He is creating gays by programing their genes.
Hmmmm.....[/quote]

I think that part was just speculation on why the religious conservatives might want to prove homosexuality to be non-genetic. Anyway, this doesn't really have any relevance on whether it actually is genetic or not, which was the main point of the (first) article.

[quote]Let's use the example of diabetes since the article brought it up as justification that gays can't defeat their SSA, anymore than diabetics can defeat the way their body process sugar.[/quote]

It didn't really say that. It just mentioned changing sexual orientation as an reason why someone might care whether SSA was genetic or not.

[quote]However, the SSA person, like the diabetic, can choose behaviors that affect how to act based on their sexaul attractions. It's unfortunate that a diabetic cannot eat Snicker bars whenever they want.[/quote]

Of course we can choose any behaviors we want, that's not in question. It's whether we can affect the sexual attraction itself. That's what I don't agree with.

[quote]Humans are not merely 'base' animals, at the mercy of unwilled instinct. We humans have mental will and capacity far above animals, and we choose how to react and behave in reaction to whatever urges, attractions, and insticts we feel.[/quote]

No one is denying that. But we do indeed have urges, attractions and instincts! And what's important in this discussion is that most of them are innate and unchangeable. SSA is one of them.

[quote]So regardless of whether SSA is genetic or not, our choice in behaviors is not beyond our control. The controversy is not whether God created people with SSA or not, the controversy is about which set of behaviors society and individuals wishes to choose.[/quote]

Again, I'm not saying we don't have a choice in our behavior. I'm saying we don't have a choice in what we are attracted to. We can control out behavior, but we can't control our emotions.

The article Ironmonk linked to made the claims that (1) homosexuality is non-genetic, (2) homosexuals can change their sexual orientation to heterosexuality, (3) there is a great number of people who have changed their sexual orientation, (4) reparative therapy works, and that (5) homosexuality is caused by traumas during adolescence.

All those claims are clearly wrong and the articles, that I linked to, show that. I wasn't talking about morality or behavior.

[Semalsia]

[quote]This is absolutely bogus and a load of smelly carp. Read this: [url="http://www.newswithviews.com/psychology/psychology2.htm"]http://www.newswithviews.com/psychology/psychology2.htm[/url]
It's written by a man...that used to be homosexual, but learned to overcome his SSA and lives a normal, happy heterosexual lifestyle.[/quote]

That poor man is obviously in denial. He's been brainwashed to believe all the lies from the anti-gay crowd.

The very first paragraph tells a lot. The guy is so scared and shamed of the idea of being gay that he paints himself as a victim to the point where it almost sounds like he was sexually abused for all those eleven years.

[Aloysius]

See, now that's where you get absolutely discriminatory. Based upon your prejudices of the way people with Same Sex Attraction are, you have concluded that they should be excluded from the right to have wives and families; and if one should attempt to do so, you label him 'brainwashed'

Believe it or not, quite a lot of homosexuals have bad experiences with the lifestyle, many of them do not actually want the lifestyle, but many do not think there is any other way for them. And that's because of people like you spreading the myth that they must live this lifestyle.

Whatever position one comes down on, one should not take the discriminatory and bigoted position that people who have same sex attraction should not at least have the OPTION to have wives and children and families. It is here where your side comes down on the same side many racists of the past came down on; those who said blacks by nature couldn't or shouldn't have the same privledges as whites do, for instance. You say that becaue of their nature, gays should not be perrmitted to have the same type of lifestyle as "straights"

I say that most everyone in our society is pretty sexually perverted in some way or another, and that gays have just as much of a right to try to overcome their perversion as any of us have the right to overcome our perversions to make an attempt at creating a biological family

I would suggest that you ammend your position, if you really want to show kindness and sympathy towards them. I do not suggest that you adopt my position in this plea, but merely that you drop a particular prejudice of your position (because it's quite a painful prejudice for those of us who have encountered it first hand); go on and defend the rights of gays to act on their homosexuality if you wish; but you become unfair and hurtful to a great number of people when you argue against their right to explore or attempt heterosexuality; quite a number of them find themselves torn between two worlds when they realize that although their body's passions are ordered towards the same sex, they have a latent desire on some level to have a male-female parental procreative bond. and believe me, that's not something the "anti-gay crowd" plants into their heads, either, as if one would have to plant the most basic instinct of any creature into someone's head (the instinct to procreate).

please don't belittle homosexuals for having the idea that they want to have heterosexual marriage and family. they are so fought over on political lines, that to go to either side entails a sort of indoctrination (if they go towards homosexuality, they must indoctrinate out of themselves all desire to have a heterosexual relationship and order themselves towards following their baser passions; if they go towards heterosexuality they must indoctrinate themselves against their baser passions and consider them completely gone)

I am of the same opinion of Our Lord Jesus Christ: "The Truth shall set you free". All the political tug-of-war over homosexuals has made it impossible for them to be truly and sincerely honest with themselves and the world. In many cases, being honest with themselves would reveal that they do indeed have sexual appetites directed at the same sex, but that they also have a desire on some other level for family and natural procreation. They can honestly pursue that higher desire if they wish, and that higher desire can even cause the introduction of sexual appetites directed at the opposite sex. A direct deus ex machina "cure" that gets rid of all other contrary sexual appetites is not as lucky, but one who is honest with themselves can really look for the path he wishes to take.

You hear so much about those "ex gay" husbands/fathers who get caught having an affair with another man. What happened? Well, their desire for family was authentic, even their attraction to their wife was authentic; but caught up in the political tug-of-war, they were not honest about the fact that they also had baser sexual appetites which were still homosexual (they had already declared themselves "cured" in a type of OSAS way, and thus could not admit to that)... if they had been more honest with themselves about those still existing, they would have understood themselves better and likely would not have turned to a homosexual affair; the temptation to a homosexual affair would've been like how any husband could be tempted to a heterosexual affair; it is those who pretend their passions do not exist who fall victim to them most often.

[prose]

Has anyone here been to the [url="http://www.narth.com"]http://www.narth.com[/url] website?

[PapaHilarious]

[quote name='Semalsia' post='1383640' date='Sep 11 2007, 01:35 PM']That poor man is obviously in denial. He's been brainwashed to believe all the lies from the anti-gay crowd.

The very first paragraph tells a lot. The guy is so scared and shamed of the idea of being gay that he paints himself as a victim to the point where it almost sounds like he was sexually abused for all those eleven years.[/quote]

This is a very common political argument, that you can be "brainwashed" by the hateful, conservative side.

Consider the contradiction: the APA (American Psychological Association), the secular medical profession, and the media will never claim that there is a problem with people who choose to reject their biology and "change" sexes. Yet, they are always quick to pass judgment if someone chooses to abandon the unnatural -- against nature in the foremost sense that, biologically speaking, human men and women are made to go together to continue the species -- for the natural, when they choose to use their bodies in a way that fits their sexual design.

Additionally, as the psychological work of groups like [url="http://www.narth.com"]NARTH[/url] and others have shown consistently, there are numerous non-biological factors that affect someone's decision to seek a homosexual lifestyle. The most obvious, of course, being the direct correlation between lack of a strong same-sex role model during adolescence.

And remember, before the APA and western psychology as a whole discredited itself by bowing to liberal politics, it was unanimously agreed that homosexuality was a disordered condition, as it went against the biological compatibility of the human species. Science speaks for itself on the issue and always has. Only recently has a smear campaign begun to make this a [i]fanatical[/i] religious issue.

[PapaHilarious]

[quote name='prose' post='1383676' date='Sep 11 2007, 02:45 PM']Has anyone here been to the [url="http://www.narth.com"]http://www.narth.com[/url] website?[/quote]

scary. you read my mind

[ironmonk]

[quote name='Semalsia' post='1383327' date='Sep 11 2007, 08:51 AM']Pretty much all the claims in that article are untrue.

Here is some actual information:
[url="http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_caus3.htm"]Is homosexuality genetically determined?[/url]
[url="http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_repar.htm"]Can gays become ex-gays?[/url]
[url="http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_exod1.htm"]Estimates of success rates (of reparative therapy)[/url]

It is quite clear that:
1) Homosexuality has a genetic factor
2) Whether someone is a homosexual is determined at very early childhood or earlier
3) Reparative therapy doesn't work
4) No other form of treatment works either
5) No homosexual has ever changed into heterosexual
6) Reparative therapy can be mentally and emotionally damaging to the patient
A quatation from the first article I linked to:
"What is know is that it takes effect before the child reaches age 5. Child psychologists can interview children at that age and determine with excellent accuracy who will grow up to be gay."[/quote]


Funny how you ignore the references to the dozens of studies by non-Catholic psychologists/psychiatrists.

Attraction is not genetic. The basis for "genetic" same sex attraction comes from a homosexually active doctor who looked at 13 dead people, some died from AIDS - unverified if the few where homosexual, some did not die of AIDS. This "doctor" drew his conclusion from 13 people and a couple have a enlarge hypothylamus... this is BY FAR from scientific. This is laughable.... what is more laughable how many zombies buy into it without any thought or examination. There have been twin studies where twins where seperated via adoption or some other reason... one ended up having same sex attraction, the other did not... in multiple cases... then they looked at how they were brought up... and viola - it's in the Homosexuality and Hope article.

Not to mention, you contradict yourself.

The website "religious tolerance" is far from being an authority on anything.

Get educated and do your homework or don't bother playing.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Semalsia' post='1383327' date='Sep 11 2007, 06:51 AM']Pretty much all the claims in that article are untrue.

Here is some actual information:
[url="http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_caus3.htm"]Is homosexuality genetically determined?[/url]
[url="http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_repar.htm"]Can gays become ex-gays?[/url]
[url="http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_exod1.htm"]Estimates of success rates (of reparative therapy)[/url]

It is quite clear that:
1) Homosexuality has a genetic factor
2) Whether someone is a homosexual is determined at very early childhood or earlier
3) Reparative therapy doesn't work
4) No other form of treatment works either
5) No homosexual has ever changed into heterosexual
6) Reparative therapy can be mentally and emotionally damaging to the patient
A quatation from the first article I linked to:
"What is know is that it takes effect before the child reaches age 5. Child psychologists can interview children at that age and determine with excellent accuracy who will grow up to be gay."[/quote]
First of all, "religioustolerance.org" is a blatant pro-homosexual propaganda site, and is far from truthful or unbiased, though every liberal on here seems to cite it as an "authoritative" source. I remember laughing at it's pathetic and tortured attempts to claim the Bible does not condemn homsosexuality, when someone linked there.

None of your listed "facts" are proven truth.
1) Despite media hype, no "gay gene" has ever been discovered. This claim remains speculation at best. And the documented fact that identical twins have grown up to have opposite "sexual orientations" proves clearly that homosexuality is not totally genetically predetermined.
And we human beings are not slaves to our genetics when behavior is involved. To say so is pseudo-science.
2) Early childhood events can influence sexuality, but that does not mean the effects of childhood trauma cannot be corrected later in life. Of course, the earlier in life it is dealt with, the easier it will be to fix.
3-5) All false, as proven by the testimony of those who have indeed successfully gone from "gay" to "straight." (See others' links here.)
6) Homosexuality can be mentally and emotionally damaging to a person. "Gay" is a misnomer. Many who have made the change are happier heterosexual, as that is man's natural condition.

[quote name='Semalsia' post='1383640' date='Sep 11 2007, 02:35 PM']That poor man is obviously in denial. He's been brainwashed to believe all the lies from the anti-gay crowd.[/quote]
Brilliant logic. If someone's testimony contradicts your opinions, he is obviously in denial and brainwashed.
Because all pro-homosexuality material is ipso-facto truthful, and that which opposes it must be lies.

Your one-sided dogmatism here puts Budge to shame.

[srknightwife]

[quote name='Semalsia' post='1383427' date='Sep 11 2007, 10:59 AM']I think that part was just speculation on why the religious conservatives might want to prove homosexuality to be non-genetic. Anyway, this doesn't really have any relevance on whether it actually is genetic or not, which was the main point of the (first) article.
It didn't really say that. It just mentioned changing sexual orientation as an reason why someone might care whether SSA was genetic or not.
Of course we can choose any behaviors we want, that's not in question. It's whether we can affect the sexual attraction itself. That's what I don't agree with.
No one is denying that. But we do indeed have urges, attractions and instincts! And what's important in this discussion is that most of them are innate and unchangeable. SSA is one of them.
Again, I'm not saying we don't have a choice in our behavior. I'm saying we don't have a choice in what we are attracted to. We can control out behavior, but we can't control our emotions.

The article Ironmonk linked to made the claims that (1) homosexuality is non-genetic, (2) homosexuals can change their sexual orientation to heterosexuality, (3) there is a great number of people who have changed their sexual orientation, (4) reparative therapy works, and that (5) homosexuality is caused by traumas during adolescence.

All those claims are clearly wrong and the articles, that I linked to, show that. I wasn't talking about morality or behavior.[/quote]


Hmmmmmm I like the way you put things out there. I dont think homesexuality is generic. I agree we cantcontrol what our emotions but we can control our behavoir. I dont thnk that therepy will cure the homosexuallity in a person cause some times i think we are what we make ourselves to be through choices and accidents in our lives.
People seem to treat homosexualit like a disease bu it is a way a person chooses to live. Therapy can cure tramas in adolescence; it cant cure a person choosing a way to live thier life.

[Farsight one]

Read and learn: [url="http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/neuro/neuro98/202s98-paper2/Bodian2.html"]http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/neuro/neur...r2/Bodian2.html[/url]

The evidence to suggest that homosexuality is not a choice is growing and growing and growing every day. The evidence against is paltry at best.

While some have successfully reversed their orientation, I would suggest that they were actually straight to begin with, and became homosexual due to environment and this reversal therapy corrected them. These reversal therapy programs have a horrendous success rate either way. and, among the success rate, there is an extremely high reversion rate(go back to gay)

No, there is no definitive proof yet, but the evidence is strong.

Question - why do some of you seem to want it to be a choice so much? Whether or not it is a choice does not effect their ability to follow God or to not sin. It's the activity that's bad, not the orientation.

[PapaHilarious]

[quote name='Farsight one' post='1383973' date='Sep 11 2007, 10:13 PM']Read and learn: [url="http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/neuro/neuro98/202s98-paper2/Bodian2.html"]http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/neuro/neur...r2/Bodian2.html[/url]

The evidence to suggest that homosexuality is not a choice is growing and growing and growing every day. The evidence against is paltry at best.

While some have successfully reversed their orientation, I would suggest that they were actually straight to begin with, and became homosexual due to environment and this reversal therapy corrected them. These reversal therapy programs have a horrendous success rate either way. and, among the success rate, there is an extremely high reversion rate(go back to gay)

No, there is no definitive proof yet, but the evidence is strong.[/quote]

I looked at the undergraduate student paper you linked to, but I must wonder if you actually looked into any of the evidence that contradicts your argument that was already mentioned here, like [url="http://www.narth.com"]NARTH[/url]. You can access dozens, if not hundreds, of PHD-written articles and studies from there.

[quote]Question - why do some of you seem to want it to be a choice so much? Whether or not it is a choice does not effect their ability to follow God or to not sin. It's the activity that's bad, not the orientation.[/quote]

The problem with the discussion here is the [i]definition[/i] of homosexuality. Real [i]homosexuality[/i], as understood from a moral perspective, is engaging in homosexual activity. No one (not me, at least) is arguing that there is 100% NO component of predisposition to homosexual tendencies. But just as in any other area of life - depression, kleptomania, violent tendencies, alcoholism, etc. - even if there is an element of your nature that promotes something, you still have the free will to choose the path to God. The point that the media and secular society has relegated to religious bigotry is the fact that homosexual tendencies are [i]flaws[/i], caused by our Original Sin.

Of course, this is a very touchy topic to discuss today, but to put it in a charitable perspective, I make a comparison to my own [i]flawed[/i] family history, since we all have one. ... My family has a history of severe depression, including several breakdowns and suicides (most recently my father's). We don't celebrate self-deprecation and introversion, though. Nor we do take the attitude that that's just the way we are and what comes natural to us. Instead, we do what we can to overcome our burden and seek the face of God through our actions, even when it's difficult.