Luke 10:16

[Anomaly]

It's wonderful that Catholics have patted themselves on the back and shown the Apostolic succession and the authority.

Where's the scripture that establishes the parameters/limits of the authority as well as the parameters/limits of supposed 'infallibility'?

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1384047' date='Sep 12 2007, 07:07 AM']It's wonderful that Catholics have patted themselves on the back and shown the Apostolic succession and the authority.

Where's the scripture that establishes the parameters/limits of the authority as well as the parameters/limits of supposed 'infallibility'?[/quote]

I am not disagreeing with you in that there are those throughout the catholic church who have abused their authority and are wrong in their actions and teachings, yet this is another command from Jesus in the same situation.

"The Scribes and Pharisees have sat on the chair of Moses. ALL things, therefore, that they command you, observe and do. But do not act according to their works; for they talk but do nothing."
Matthew 23:2-3

[Anomaly]

[quote name='"Kyrie eleison' post='1384101' date='Sep 12 2007, 10:49 AM']I am not disagreeing with you in that there are those throughout the catholic church who have abused their authority and are wrong in their actions and teachings, yet this is another command from Jesus in the same situation.

"The Scribes and Pharisees have sat on the chair of Moses. ALL things, therefore, that they command you, observe and do. But do not act according to their works; for they talk but do nothing."
Matthew 23:2-3[/quote]Exactly! Just because Jesus has shared His authority does not mean that we humans can or will utilize that authority with 'infallibility'. Repeatedly Jesus reminds us of that as well as chastises those who misuse what they've been gifted with.

Respect for the authority does not mean blind 'obedience'. Removing the requirement of 'blind obedience' does not undermine the requirement for respect. The human clergy of the Catholic Church constantly forget about the nuances and work themselves into bad spot. They tell the lay to be obedient to the Bishops and submit their will to them, while also acknowledging the Bishops aren't perfect, but then telling the lay the Bishops have 'infallible' teaching athority. The Church then further confuses things by being reluctant to discipline errant Bishops because their fear they'll undermine their authority and faith of the people in the fairy tale of the infallibility of the 'Ordinary Magisterium'.

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote]The Church then further confuses things by being reluctant to discipline errant Bishops because their fear they'll undermine their authority and faith of the people in the fairy tale of the infallibility of the 'Ordinary Magisterium'.[/quote]

Those who have made a vow to serve Jesus and his church will have to answer for scattering the flock, as they are responsible for nuturing Jesus' sheep.

"Woe to the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture, said the Lord."
Jeremiah 23:1

Those of his sheep who have scattered because of the sins of the clergy do not have a firm understanding of the church and it's teachings and the authority that she holds. The Church is greater than any of its members and their sins. The Mystical Bride of Christ, and Jesus is the head.

Each member is one of many branches of the vine. Branches that are fruitless will be pruned, yet the vine lives.

If a member is cut off it is likened to the parable of the vine-dresser:
"I am the true vine, and my Father is the vine-dresser. Every branch in me that bears no fruit he will take away; and every branch that bears fruit he will cleanse, that it may bear more fruit."
John 15:1-2

It is God that does the pruning.

"I know that after my departure fierce wolves will get in among you, and will not spare the flock. AND FROM AMONG YOUR OWN SELVES MEN WILL RISE SPEAKING PERVERSE THINGS, TO DRAW AWAY THE DISCIPLES AFTER THEM."
Acts 20:29-30

Martin Luther and Ulrich Zwingli were Catholic priests and did not heed to the warnings of the church and what has their uprising cause but more splits in the body of christ, with more interpretations than ever.

"They shall go about seeking the Word of the Lord, and shall not find it."
Amos 8:12

[Anomaly]

Kewl. So you agree with me. God is participating in the Earthly Church not with Infallible 'Perfection', but with Divine Correction.

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1384311' date='Sep 12 2007, 02:38 PM']Kewl. So you agree with me. God is participating in the Earthly Church not with Infallible 'Perfection', but with Divine Correction.[/quote]

Yes, this is what I have been attempting to convey from the beginning. The gates of hell will not prevail against the Church on which Jesus founded, regardless of the imperfection of it's member's.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='"Kyrie eleison' post='1384321' date='Sep 12 2007, 03:58 PM']Yes, this is what I have been attempting to convey from the beginning. The gates of hell will not prevail against the Church on which Jesus founded, regardless of the imperfection of it's member's.[/quote]Exactly. So we can reject imperfection and Catholics shouldn't get upset when people reject what they see as error in the Catholic Church.

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1384357' date='Sep 12 2007, 04:01 PM']Exactly. So we can reject imperfection and Catholics shouldn't get upset when people reject what they see as error in the Catholic Church.[/quote]

Error and imperfections in it's members but not in the teachings and the manifold of wisdom that Jesus promised would be upheld through his Church, to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places.

Ephesians 3

10So that the manifold wisdom of God might now be [b]made known through the church [/b]to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='"Kyrie eleison' post='1384388' date='Sep 12 2007, 05:38 PM']Error and imperfections in it's members but not in the teachings and the manifold of wisdom that Jesus promised would be upheld through his Church, to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places.

Ephesians 3

10So that the manifold wisdom of God might now be [b]made known through the church [/b]to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places.[/quote]But you just said the Chuch has imperfect people speaking imperfectly for it.

[Deo Iuvente]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1384391' date='Sep 12 2007, 03:47 PM']But you just said the Chuch has imperfect people speaking imperfectly for it.[/quote]
Did anyone bring up the point that the members of the church can be in error,the bishops of the church can be in error,that infallibility of teaching isn't something that any person who's a bishop or pope exercises every time they teach or say anything.Personal opinions don't fall under infallibility.

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1384391' date='Sep 12 2007, 04:47 PM']But you just said the Chuch has imperfect people speaking imperfectly for it.[/quote]

We can be assured that the truths that Jesus entrusted to his apostles have been preserved through his magesterium and that all doctrine is the truth and nothing but the truth in accordance with apostolic oral and written tradition, as Jesus promised to send the Holy spirit to his church, [b]regardless [/b]of the imperfect people speaking for her. Jesus gave himself up for her, washes his bride and sanctifies her through his word.

"Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the Church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word;"
Ephesians 5:25-26

Do you doubt that Jesus cannot santify his church through and through with the washing of his word, which is TRUTH and nothing but the truth, regardless of the Judas' and the Mahoney's and every imperfect clergy throughout the ages?

["Kyrie eleison"]

Anomaly,

There are many things that Jesus wished for us to know which would not be revealed till a later time, his Church has revealed these truths, and has DECLARED THEM, as promised, by Jesus, when the time was right. It is in God's time.

"Many things yet I have to say to you, but you cannot bear them [b]now[/b]. But when the Spirit of Truth has come, he will teach you all the truth, ...and the things that are to come he will declare to you," Jn 16:12-15

[Anomaly]

Here's the thing, Kyrie. The Catholic Church demands obedience and submission of will to certain things that are not easily defended or established by Scripture or Tradition, otherwise you can't call yourself 'Catholic'. For example, the Roman Catholic Church can clearly establish and defend the principle of a 'Pope' who is the leader among bishops. Fine, let's call that Primacy. Subsequently, to then claim 'Supremacy', is a much different matter. If we concede that Jesus established Peter's role as Primary Bishop, but that doesn't mean he's Supreme Bishop. That's going beyond what Tradition and Scripture has established. That's one of the many stumbling blocks that keeps the East/West Schism a reality today.

The Roman Catholic Church's erroneous decision to transform the Primacy role of Pope to a role as Supreme Ruler is one of the problem that many Christians have with Roman Catholic Church. That is a transformation of roles that humans developed for geo-political purposes, more so than theological need. Sure, it would be great to have the Church viewed as an Infallible Mouthpiece of God, but that's not reality. It sure would solve alot of problems and difficulties. But that's not what God has done in the past, even with sinner/saints after Jesus' ressurection.

Even the RC Church admits and concedes it is not the exclusive presense of salvific grace. The nuance is similar. The original Christian Church can claim to be the exclusive original source, but humanity has not fragmanted God's grace that salvific grace is exclusive property of a human defined 'Church'.

If I reject Supremacy of the Pope because I believe quite strongly that it should be a Primacy as God established and not a convenient and useful idea that humans invented, does that mean I reject God Himself? Though the Catholic Church will kick me out for that, does God kick me out of His family? Are all Orthodox Church members condemened to hell because they are committed to their side of the Schism because that's what they believe God teaches and has established via Christ?

I believe that Christian Churches often over-reach the authority that Jesus gives them. We're human and God allows us that imperfection. Christian Churches regularly demand obedience to this doctrine or that doctrine when it's not required by God to be an either/or question. Not that I believe in absolute Truths, but that I don't believe the Church can, does, or should provide absolutes in anything but very fundamental principles. Infallible in all matter of faith and morals, is much different that infallibility in providing specific definitions and answers to fundamental questions while working in conjunction with the established body of the Church. Speak and determine whether Jesus is Divine, Human, or Both. Answer the question of whether Mary was sinless as being possible, laudible, and likely, but that's not a fundamental question required to access God's salvific grace. Demand otherwise, and you force people away un-neccessarily and undermine respect for the role the Church is intended to fulfill.

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote]'Anomaly' date='Sep 12 2007, 06:19 PM' post='1384426']
Here's the thing, Kyrie. The Catholic Church demands obedience and submission of will to certain things that are not easily defended or established by Scripture or Tradition, otherwise you can't call yourself 'Catholic'. For example, the Roman Catholic Church can clearly establish and defend the principle of a 'Pope' who is the leader among bishops. Fine, let's call that Primacy. Subsequently, to then claim 'Supremacy', is a much different matter. If we concede that Jesus established Peter's role as Primary Bishop, but that doesn't mean he's Supreme Bishop. That's going beyond what Tradition and Scripture has established. That's one of the many stumbling blocks that keeps the East/West Schism a reality today.[/quote]

When Jesus commanded Peter to feed his sheep and to tend his sheep, John 21:15-17 Jesus gave him[b] full [/b]supremacy over his flock. In John 10:16, Jesus said, "...and there shall be [b]ONE FOLD [/b]and [b]ONE SHEPHERD." [/b]

[quote]The Roman Catholic Church's erroneous decision to transform the Primacy role of Pope to a role as Supreme Ruler is one of the problem that many Christians have with Roman Catholic Church. That is a transformation of roles that humans developed for geo-political purposes, more so than theological need. Sure, it would be great to have the Church viewed as an Infallible Mouthpiece of God, but that's not reality. It sure would solve alot of problems and difficulties. But that's not what God has done in the past, even with sinner/saints after Jesus' ressurection.[/quote]

There have always been father figures in the bible to lead the people of God, in the past. Moses was the "Father Figure" for GOD's chosen people, the one who would lead them out of the bondage of Egypt. Exodus 1 to Deut 34.

Did not God speak directly to Moses from the Burning Bush in Exodus 3:4-10, and in many other verses.

Our Father Abraham: He became the "Father of a Multitude of Nations" in Genesis 17:5.
God did speak directly to Abraham in Genesis 17:1-22, and in many other verses.

Jacob, he became the "Father of Israel" in Genesis 32:29, and he had twelve sons who became the "Father Figures" of each of the twelve tribes of Israel, Exodus 29-49.
God spoke directly to Jacob in Genesis 35:1, and in other verses.

David, who was both King, 2Sam 6:16, and Priest, 2Sam 6:18, GOD spoke directly to David in 2Samuel 2:1 and in other verses.


"He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" Simon Peter replied, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! [b]For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven."[/b]Matthew 16:15-17

GOD has spoken through His "Father Figure", Peter, and Peter only,[b] revealing the truth to him.[/b]Why do you say that God does not speak today through His "Father Figure" on earth, or the successors to Simon Peter, just as God has done in the past? God is the same today, yesterday and tomorrow.

[quote]Even the RC Church admits and concedes it is not the exclusive presense of salvific grace. The nuance is similar. The original Christian Church can claim to be the exclusive original source, but humanity has not fragmanted God's grace that salvific grace is exclusive property of a human defined 'Church'.
If I reject Supremacy of the Pope because I believe quite strongly that it should be a Primacy as God established and not a convenient and useful idea that humans invented, does that mean I reject God Himself? Though the Catholic Church will kick me out for that, does God kick me out of His family? Are all Orthodox Church members condemened to hell because they are committed to their side of the Schism because that's what they believe God teaches and has established via Christ?[/quote]

Anomaly, I am not your judge, nor the orthodox who are involved in the schism, yet Jesus set the foundation and gave authority to his apostles and his Church, which Paul tells us is the pillar and ground of all truth, 1Timothy 3:15, which has the authority to call you anathema, if you refuse to listen to her. Mt 18:17.

Paul warns us in Rom 13:1-2, "Let everyone be subject to the higher authorities, for THERE EXISTS NO AUTHORITY EXCEPT FROM GOD, AND THOSE WHO EXIST HAVE BEEN APPOINTED BY GOD. Therefore HE WHO RESISTS THE AUTHORITY RESISTS THE ORDINANCE OF GOD; AND THEY THAT RESIST BRING ON THEMSELVES CONDEMNATION."

and finally...

[quote]I believe that Christian Churches often over-reach the authority that Jesus gives them. We're human and God allows us that imperfection. Christian Churches regularly demand obedience to this doctrine or that doctrine when it's not required by God to be an either/or question. Not that I believe in absolute Truths, but that I don't believe the Church can, does, or should provide absolutes in anything but very fundamental principles. Infallible in all matter of faith and morals, is much different that infallibility in providing specific definitions and answers to fundamental questions while working in conjunction with the established body of the Church. Speak and determine whether Jesus is Divine, Human, or Both. Answer the question of whether Mary was sinless as being possible, laudible, and likely, but that's not a fundamental question required to access God's salvific grace. Demand otherwise, and you force people away un-neccessarily and undermine respect for the role the Church is intended to fulfill.[/quote]

What I keep on hearing is what you believe, and that is all fine and dandy, but does it make it so, Nope. Either you believe in Jesus promises or you don't. Jesus is not concerned with personal opinions but that of which is the truth.

"Teacher, we know that you are a truthful man and that you are [b]not[/b] [b]concerned with anyone’s opinion.[/b] You do not regard a person’s status [b]but teach the way of God in accordance with the TRUTH." [/b]
Mark 12:14


Jesus made promiese to send the advocate to dwell with them forever and I believe and stand on his word which is truth.

John 14:16-17,
"And I will ask the Father and He will give you another [b]Advocate to dwell with you forever,[/b] the Spirit of Truth whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him. But you shall know Him, because He will dwell with you, and be in you."


Jesus made promises to his disciples to never leave them orpahns or forsake them.

I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you. —John 14:18


Jesus promised to send them the Holy Spirit to remind them of everything he has taught them and yes, Jesus wanted his disciples to teach us these things also, if Jesus didn't think they were so important he wouldn't have commanded his apostles to teach us to[b] OBSERVE THEM. [/b]


Matthew 28:18-20,
"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. [b]Go[/b] therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, [b]teaching them to OBSERVE all that "I" have COMMANDED you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age."[/b]

And yes, there are many things that Jesus has revealed to his church and promises that the spirit of truth will come and speak[b] and guide us into ALL truth.[/b]

"I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them [b]now.[/b] When the Spirit of truth comes,[b] he will guide you into all the truth[/b]; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, [b]and he will declare to you the things that are to come."[/b]John 16:12-13

In closing, Anomaly, these scripture verses sums it all!

"But why do you call Me, 'Lord, Lord', AND DO NOT PRACTICE THE THINGS THAT I SAY?" Matthew 7:21

Everyone who comes to Me and hears My words AND ACTS UPON THEM, I will show you what he is like: he is like a man building a house, who dug deep AND LAID A FOUNDATION UPON ROCK (Matt 16:18). And when a flood came, the stream broke against that house AND COULD NOT SHAKE IT; because it was founded on rock. But he who has heard My words AND HAS NOT ACTED UPON THEM is like a MAN WHO BUILT HIS HOUSE UPON THE GROUND WITHOUT A FOUNDATION; against which the stream broke AND STRAIGHT AWAY IT FELL IN, AND GREAT WAS THE WRECK OF THAT HOUSE." Luke 6:46-49.

God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth," 1 Tim. 2:3-4

I stand firmly on the promises of Jesus.

Either you believe the whole truth and nothing but the truth is out there as promised to his apostles by Jesus, or you make Jesus a liar.

Edited September 13, 2007 by "Kyrie eleison"

[Anomaly]

Kyrie,
You got nothing other than 'the Church has authority', so it can 'anathemize'.
But you admit the Church speaks through imperfect humans and can speak in error.
You stand firmly on the idea the Church has authority, but you won't discern when the Church speaks infallibly or not. I disagree with you when the Church is speaking in line with what Jesus has taught. I don't disagree that Jesus is present when 3 or more are gathered in His name, but does that make them able to speak for Jesus?
Either you believe the whole truth and nothing but the truth or Jesus is a liar? Yeah, right. Where does it say that? Where has God given people the ability to comprehend and believe the 'truth' with perfection? Did even Paul or Peter have it? Nope.
You sum it up with "But why do you call Me, 'Lord, Lord', AND DO NOT PRACTICE THE THINGS THAT I SAY?" Matthew 7:21
The point I made is the Church speaks but it is not always the voice of Jesus. I have to follow when I believe it's Jesus, and I have the option not to if I beleive it contradicts what I believe Jesus has said.

Edited September 13, 2007 by Anomaly