Modesty And Proper Clothing For Catholic Men

[PapaHilarious]

argh...

Edited September 7, 2007 by PapaHilarious

[kateri05]

argh! stupid logout... anyways.


[quote]Such religious symbols should not be expensive,[/quote]

what does this mean? gold costs more money than plastic, how are you defining this.

[quote]Men should not wear excessive jewelry, such as gold chains or other jewelry[/quote]

the grammatical structure of this sentence states that gold chains are excessive jewelry. that, frankly is ridiculous.

"other jewelry" could mean many things. men can't wear rings?

this is the problem with your assertions, and mine and others objections, that you are arbitrarily deciding things that might be right for you but you have no ability to impose them on others or present them as these universal standards.

[kafka]

[quote name='kateri05' post='1380668' date='Sep 7 2007, 07:21 PM']argh! stupid logout... anyways.
what does this mean? gold costs more money than plastic, how are you defining this.
the grammatical structure of this sentence states that gold chains are excessive jewelry. that, frankly is ridiculous.

"other jewelry" could mean many things. men can't wear rings?

this is the problem with your assertions, and mine and others objections, that you are arbitrarily deciding things that might be right for you but you have no ability to impose them on others or present them as these universal standards.[/quote]

I stated in the article men should wear wedding rings if they are married. I also agree with the idea of men wearing chastity rings. I have no problem with the common gold chains that hold medals or crucifixes around the neck, since they tend to be covered by the shirt.

Some religious articles tend to be flashy and expensive. Look at a religious catalogue, you'll see them.

Overall though I think if one understands the spirit of the article one I think would understand that its important for men not to be vain or overly interested in their appearance or immodest because of their role in society and because Christ is the God-Man whom they should in someway attempt to imitate. In our secular western culture today their is a tendency, especially among young people, towards vanity which is unbecoming for a man. I dont feel I need to go into details. It seems obvious to me when I observe people on the streets, and meet people in public.

I dont mean to impose this on people nor criticize anyone here personally. I personally dont know any of you except through a cyber medium. I am just sharing my thoughts for any who care to benefit from them. These are not arbitrary, they are based on my understanding of the Faith.

Edited September 7, 2007 by kafka

[kafka]

Some interesting points from Aquinas from the Summa Question 169. Modesty in the outward apparel

Article 1. Whether there can be virtue and vice in connection with outward apparel?


I answer that, It is not in the outward things themselves which man uses, that there is vice, but on the part of man who uses them immoderately. This lack of moderation occurs in two ways. First, in comparison with the customs of those among whom one lives; wherefore Augustine says (Confess. iii, 8): "Those offenses which are contrary to the customs of men, are to be avoided according to the customs generally prevailing, so that a thing agreed upon and confirmed by custom or law of any city or nation may not be violated at the lawless pleasure of any, whether citizen or foreigner. For any part, which harmonizeth not with its whole, is offensive." Secondly, the lack of moderation in the use of these things may arise from the inordinate attachment of the user, the result being that a man sometimes takes too much pleasure in using them, either in accordance with the custom of those among whom he dwells or contrary to such custom. Hence Augustine says (De Doctr. Christ. iii, 12): "We must avoid excessive pleasure in the use of things, for it leads not only wickedly to abuse the customs of those among whom we dwell, but frequently to exceed their bounds, so that, whereas it lay hidden, while under the restraint of established morality, it displays its deformity in a most lawless outbreak."

In point of excess, this inordinate attachment occurs in three ways. First when a man seeks glory from excessive attention to dress; in so far as dress and such like things are a kind of ornament. Hence Gregory says (Hom. xl in Ev.): "There are some who think that attention to finery and costly dress is no sin. Surely, if this were no fault, the word of God would not say so expressly that the rich man who was tortured in hell had been clothed in purple and fine linen. No one, forsooth, seeks costly apparel" (such, namely, as exceeds his estate) "save for vainglory." Secondly, when a man seeks sensuous pleasure from excessive attention to dress, in so far as dress is directed to the body's comfort. Thirdly, when a man is too solicitous [Cf, 55, 6 in his attention to outward apparel.

Accordingly Andronicus [De Affectibus] reckons three virtues in connection with outward attire; namely "humility," which excludes the seeking of glory, wherefore he says that humility is "the habit of avoiding excessive expenditure and parade"; "contentment" [Cf, 143, Objection 4, which excludes the seeking of sensuous pleasure, wherefore he says that "contentedness is the habit that makes a man satisfied with what is suitable, and enables him to determine what is becoming in his manner of life" (according to the saying of the Apostle, 1 Timothy 6:8): "Having food and wherewith to be covered, with these let us be content;"--and "simplicity," which excludes excessive solicitude about such things, wherefore he says that "simplicity is a habit that makes a man contented with what he has."

In the point of deficiency there may be inordinate attachment in two ways. First, through a man's neglect to give the requisite study or trouble to the use of outward apparel. Wherefore the Philosopher says (Ethic. vii, 7) that "it is a mark of effeminacy to let one's cloak trail on the ground to avoid the trouble of lifting it up." Secondly, by seeking glory from the very lack of attention to outward attire. Hence Augustine says (De Serm. Dom. in Monte ii, 12) that "not only the glare and pomp of outward things, but even dirt and the weeds of mourning may be a subject of ostentation, all the more dangerous as being a decoy under the guise of God's service"; and the Philosopher says (Ethic. iv, 7) that "both excess and inordinate defect are a subject of ostentation."


[url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3169.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3169.htm[/url]

[Paladin D]

[quote name='kafka' post='1380650' date='Sep 7 2007, 08:00 PM']by the way I'm a he. And for men I think its vain to be too interested in ones appearance. And by the way I am getting tired of people not reading my posts carefully enough and then misinterprating them notice Paladin I said:

Men should not [b]overly [/b] adore themselves with gold or jewelry.

Men should not wear [b]excessive[/b] jewelry, such as gold chains or other jewelry

His watch should not be [b]overly[/b] expensive, nor [b]overly[/b] adorned.

A man may wear a religious symbol around his neck, such as a cross, or a scapular, or other. Such religious symbols should not be expensive, nor showy.
And this I write in the spirit of imitating Christ and the Saints.[/quote]

I apologize, for some reason I thought you were a female.

The thing is, what is considered overly expensive? Or excessive jewelry for that matter? It's hard to determine sometimes because people have different standards, it also depends on your background. I own a $50 Dakota watch, to some that's overly expensive, to others it's cheap. I wear it almost all the time, it's the only wrist watch I own (except for a broken Star Wars watch I bought years ago). I'm also a very skinny guy (142 lbs. at 6'1"), does this mean I'm blurring the line between a woman and a man? Since men should have more meat, while women should keep their beautiful figure?

I read your last few posts, and now understand the main point your trying to make. I believe we all can agree with what you're trying to say, but when you start to nitpick and get into specifics [b]based on your interpretation of Scripture and your preconceived notions that are a result of your upbringing/background[/b], thus creating your own standard, it's bound to conflict with other peoples' standards.

Your message is a good one, I just believe you could've presented it better.

Edited September 8, 2007 by Paladin D

[Budge]

I think Christians need to be more concerned about the inside rather then the out.

I take issue with fellow fundies who are into dress rules...

ie. I do not think a pastor HAS to wear a suit everytime he preaches, pants are ok on women if they are modest, and that some of this stuff can get overly legalistic.

[bonoducchi]

[quote name='scardella' post='1380482' date='Sep 7 2007, 03:34 PM']Men shouldn't wear kilts. It's a skirt. Women wear skirts. Therefore, men should not wear kilts.[/quote]

A tunic is like a long dress....

[Jaime]

First I want to say that apparently Papahilarius is married to a pirate. It is quite possible that papa may be one as well.

Secondly, I'm going to guess that all male pirates would be considered immodestly dressed by some who are posting here.

Watch yourself Papa H.


And now I shall sit back and wait for the "Modesty and Proper Clothing for Dogs" thread. I will have much to say on that one. (My dog just walked by wearing a mesh thong speedo and several faux gold chains)

[PapaHilarious]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1381181' date='Sep 8 2007, 03:06 PM']First I want to say that apparently Papahilarius is married to a pirate. It is quite possible that papa may be one as well.

Secondly, I'm going to guess that all male pirates would be considered immodestly dressed by some who are posting here.

Watch yourself Papa H.
And now I shall sit back and wait for the "Modesty and Proper Clothing for Dogs" thread. I will have much to say on that one. (My dog just walked by wearing a mesh thong speedo and several faux gold chains)[/quote]

yarrrr, matey. tis an egregious lie to be callins a fine gentle sir likes myself a pirate. continue in yer course of action, and i shalls be forced to run you thru.


ps - my cats are skanks. not a lick of modesty in them.

[Jaime]

I had no idea that we could say "skanks" here.

Thanks Papa H

[Carolyn]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1381228' date='Sep 8 2007, 04:28 PM']I had no idea that we could say "skanks" here.

Thanks Papa H[/quote]

Hehe! Me neither.

[Socrates]

I agree with the basic gist of most of what Kafka says here: that men should be masculine in their dress/grooming, and avoid effeminacy and ostentation.
I am pretty traditional when it comes to dress and grooming, and absolutely despise "metrosexual" trends.

However, I think we need to be careful when declaring exactly what others may and may not wear, etc.
Especially when it comes down to things such as how much body fat or muscle a man have!

If fatness is the result of gluttony and/or sloth, that is a bad thing, but some people are genetically fat, and have great difficulty keeping off the pounds, even if they eat healthfully and get plenty of exercise.
Similarly with thinness.

And exactly how much muscle is "excessive"? While I'd find competitive body-building - with its use of steroids, and devoting one's life to the purpose of extreme muscle-building - excessive and problematic, where exactly does one draw the line? Different people would have quite different definitions of "excessive."
I'm a weightlifter myself, and of above-average musculature.

I don't see anything wrong with wanting to "look good," so long as one does not damage one's body through excessive and unnatural means, and it is not carried to undue extremes, where it becomes the primary focus of one's life, or interferes with one's other duties.

Likewise, with clothes. I think Christian men should present a neat clean appearance, and there is nothing wrong with having "nice" clothes. However, I don't think they should spend excessive time primping themselves, or wear clothes and "bling" that are simply an ostentatious display of material wealth.

With regards imitating Christ, it should also be noted that not everyone is called to be a monk; just as not everyone is called to absolute poverty and celibacy, likewise with the clothes.

We should watch out for vanity, but should also guard against judgmentalism regarding the appearance of others:
"Look at fatty here - he's obviously a lazy glutton. And skinny's obviously too vain about his body fat. And muscleman over there's obviously full of vanity."

[MissScripture]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1381181' date='Sep 8 2007, 05:06 PM']First I want to say that apparently Papahilarius is married to a pirate. It is quite possible that papa may be one as well.

Secondly, I'm going to guess that all male pirates would be considered immodestly dressed by some who are posting here.

Watch yourself Papa H.
And now I shall sit back and wait for the "Modesty and Proper Clothing for Dogs" thread. I will have much to say on that one. (My dog just walked by wearing a mesh thong speedo and several faux gold chains)[/quote]

[Norseman82]

All I can say is I remember the "good ole days" when the men wore the tattoos and the women wore the earrings.....

[quote name='Socrates' post='1381389' date='Sep 8 2007, 09:04 PM']I'm a weightlifter myself,[/quote]

You just reminded me of that skit - I think it was SNL - "How much ya bench?"

Edited September 9, 2007 by Norseman82

[jeffpugh]

Lawl.

I think this is an interesting thread. We can get caught up in the female-like problems, but then there's the male aspect too...