Modesty And Proper Clothing For Catholic Men

[kafka]

Sacred Scripture

"A woman shall not wear anything that pertains to a man, nor shall a man put on a woman's garment; for whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD your God." (Deut 22:5).

"Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfil them. For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. Whever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." (Mt 5:17-19).

Clothing and Roles

Clothing is an expression of one's behavior, attitude, and role. Men and women should dress and groom themselves differently, as an expression of the different roles given to them by God. Men should not dress or act like women, for this is an abomination in God's eyes. God created the human race with two genders, intending each to have his and her proper place in Creation. Men and women are not meant to behave or dress the same manner. Part of the beauty of the human race is found in the differences between men and women.

God's plan is for men to be moral, competent, and to take roles of firm and fair leadership over men, women and children. God intends men to have roles of teaching, leadership, and authority over other men, women, and children. Women are not intended by God to have roles of teaching, leadership, or authority over men. Women may have, to some extent, roles of teaching, leadership, and authority over other women and over children. However, there must always be a man or some men who have roles of teaching, leadership, and authority over those women who exercise authority over other women and over children. Within the family, the wife has authority over her children, but her husband has authority over her and over their children.

God wants men and women to act and dress according to their gender and according to the place that God has given each one in Creation. Clothing and hairstyles are expressions of one's thoughts, behavior, and attitude. Women are not mean to behave like men, nor to have the same roles as men, therefore they should not dress or groom themselves like men. And vise versa.

Physical Appearance

Men should groom their hair relatively short. And although hair styles may reasonably vary from one culture to another, men should not have long hair like women. Also, the trend in modern culture, whereby a man removes most of his body hair (such as on the arms, chest, legs), is offensive to God, since it grooms a man to more resemble a woman. Men naturally have more body hair than women. Men should not remove this hair to conform to culture, nor to show off their muscles. A man may maintain a beard or moustache or other facial hair; a man may also shave his facial hair.

Men, women, and children certainly may maintain their physical health and fitness, may participate in sports, and may lift weight or perform other exercises aimed at physical fitness. However, men should not seek excessive muscular size, nor an excessively muscular appearance. Fitness is one thing, and vanity is another. Men should not have excessive body fat, for the body is a gift from God. Excessive body fat is a sign of poor health and may sometimes be a sign of self-indulgence and laziness. But neither should men seek a physical appearance with very little body fat, in order to show off their muscles, as this is vanity (and not particularly healthy).

Men should not overly adore themselves with gold or jewelry. Men should not wear any earrings; only women should wear earrings. Men should not wear excessive jewelry, such as gold chains or other jewelry. A man should wear a wedding ring, if he is married. A man may wear a watch or other functional jewelry. His watch should not be overly expensive, nor overly adorned. A man may wear a religious symbol around his neck, such as a cross, or a scapular, or other. Such religious symbols should not be expensive, nor showy.

Modest Clothing and Behavior

Women should not wear pants, nor should they dress or act like men, nor should they take roles intended only for men. Men must teach, lead, and use proper authority, so as to encourage, and even require, women to adhere to this teaching. Men must be teachers and leaders in proper clothing and behavior.

Men should wear modest clothing. They should not wear clothing that is tight or revealing. All men, women, and children should dress modestly. Men are intended by God to have roles of leadership over other men and over women and children. Therefore, men should teach, encourage, and even require their wives and children, and the men, women, and children under their leadership or authority in the Church and in society, to dress modestly. Men must be modest in clothing and they must teach, lead, and exercise proper authority, so as to encourage modesty in others.

Men must be modest in behavior. Men should not tell sexual jokes, or make sexual comments, or engange in sexually-explicit conversations, or speak and act in a way that is contrary to modesty and righteousness. Modesty applies to behavior, even more than it applies to clothing. Men should not watch pornography or treat pornography as if it were anything other than immoral and offensive.

But most men do not accept this teaching. They accept the teachings of their culture and ignore the teachings of Sacred Scripture. When the Church teaches one thing and their culture teaches another, they follow their culture instead of Christ. On the contrary, men must be leaders in modesty and in all things taught by Christ and His Church.

[N/A Gone]

[quote]Ver. 5. God. Some take this literally, as the contrary practice is contrary to decency, and might be attended with very pernicious consequences. All know what noise was occasioned by the action of Clodius, who put on women's apparel, that he might be present with the Roman ladies at the feast of the good goddess. Yet others think that Moses here forbids some superstitious practices. St. Ambrose (ep. 69,) remarks, that in some of the mysteries of the idols, it was requisite for those present to change clothes in this manner, sacrum putatur. Lucian testifies, that men put on women's clothes at the feasts of Bacchus. They did the like in those of Venus, while the women took men's clothes in the festivals of Mars. (Jul. Hirmic. c. 4.) (Maimonides) --- In the East, people honoured the moon, to which they attributed both sexes, and Venus in like manner. Josephus ([Antiquities,?] iv.8,) believes that women are here prohibited to engage in warfare. Hebrew, "the vessels (armour) of man shall not be upon a woman." Semiramis gained a great name by her martial exploits, and commanded all her subjects to dress like herself. (Justin., i) --- The Amazons were likewise very famous in war, and it is said that half the army of Bacchus was composed of women. Alb. Gentil maintains that Moses here condemns an abominable crime, which he did not wish to mention, at which the Book of Wisdom hints, (chap. xiv. 26,) and which St. Paul condemns more explicitly, Romans i. 26. Moses had already denounced death against the perpetrators of it; and surely the manner in which he now speaks, seems to forbid something more than simply putting on the garments of the other sex, for he, &c. (Calmet) --- Yet that disorderly conduct deserved to be reprobated in strong terms, (Haydock) when it was not excused by some necessity or proper motive, such as actuated some holy virgins, St. Theodora, &c. (Tirinus)[/quote]

Haydock Bible commentary


One issue to be careful of is How many things in Deut 22 we break now because they made sense for that culture but not ours. Among those things are: roof designs(8) planting different seeds in a field (9) wearing cloths of mixed fabric (10) and what do you think of 13-22? Ever do the virginity test on a wedding night or did you just pay the fine of shekels of silver and be whipped?

Deut 23:2 makes anyone without a father to the 10th generation damned. (3) would be consided racist. I think I broke 23:13 on active duty. 23:19 kills the stock market, savings and our whole economic system. I wish I knew about 24:5 when I got married.

My point is, much of this is civil law that applied to the jews at this time. Not a religious law that grew and was fulfilled in Christ.


Now, the rest of your essay does not sit well with me, but I need a while to chew it. I understand it is your opinion and more power to you, but I dont see it as something issued by God.

[adt6247]

Kafka,

I think you're being a bit too specific and pedantic with many things. Your tastes are very, very western, and even at that, overly simplistic, egalitarian, and modern (in the sense that they are influenced by the modern period, not contemporary fashion). I found the section about jewelry odd. Would you apply this standard to kings? There is nothing wrong with a watch, or cufflinks, or whatever, looking expensive, or made of very fine materials. Your standards on this point, and others, are very ahistoric.

[Paladin D]

[quote name='kafka' post='1380339' date='Sep 7 2007, 01:18 PM']Physical Appearance

[b]Men should groom their hair relatively short. And although hair styles may reasonably vary from one culture to another, men should not have long hair like women.[/b] Also, the trend in modern culture, whereby a man removes most of his body hair (such as on the arms, chest, legs), is offensive to God, since it grooms a man to more resemble a woman. Men naturally have more body hair than women. Men should not remove this hair to conform to culture, nor to show off their muscles. A man may maintain a beard or moustache or other facial hair; a man may also shave his facial hair.[/quote]

(Emphasis mine)

Hold on, so Jesus sinned?


[quote]Men, women, and children certainly may maintain their physical health and fitness, may participate in sports, and may lift weight or perform other exercises aimed at physical fitness. However, men should not seek excessive muscular size, nor an excessively muscular appearance. Fitness is one thing, and vanity is another. Men should not have excessive body fat, for the body is a gift from God. Excessive body fat is a sign of poor health and may sometimes be a sign of self-indulgence and laziness. But neither should men seek a physical appearance with very little body fat, in order to show off their muscles, as this is vanity (and not particularly healthy).[/quote]

I'm 50/50 on this one. You cannot judge someone purely by their physical appearance. Accessive fat can come not just from laziness or not eating the right foods, but also can be as a result from a genetic disease or upbringing.

Also with having a muscular appearance. If you "parade" your body around, let's say by walking down the street with no shirt while flexing your arms, then yes that would be vanity. However, I see nothing wrong with wanting to go the extra mile and achieving bodily perfection, through natural means (no steriods). Does this mean US military standards are too demanding? The lower the body fat, the better it is in their eyes. I believe that a well-formed body can be used as a gift to one's spouse, what's wrong with that?



[quote]Men should not overly adore themselves with gold or jewelry. Men should not wear any earrings; only women should wear earrings. Men should not wear excessive jewelry, such as gold chains or other jewelry. A man should wear a wedding ring, if he is married. A man may wear a watch or other functional jewelry. His watch should not be overly expensive, nor overly adorned. A man may wear a religious symbol around his neck, such as a cross, or a scapular, or other. Such religious symbols should not be expensive, nor showy.[/quote]

How is a simple gold chain sinful? What is the difference between a cheap gold chain, and an expensive silver one? The color?

You're nitpicking at things that in the end, do not really matter. It's attuides such as these that lead to a "holier than thou" outlook, which ultimately leads to religious [b]vanity[/b] in one's own mind.

Edited September 7, 2007 by Paladin D

[kafka]

[quote name='adt6247' post='1380410' date='Sep 7 2007, 02:10 PM']Kafka,

I think you're being a bit too specific and pedantic with many things. Your tastes are very, very western, and even at that, overly simplistic, egalitarian, and modern (in the sense that they are influenced by the modern period, not contemporary fashion). I found the section about jewelry odd. Would you apply this standard to kings? There is nothing wrong with a watch, or cufflinks, or whatever, looking expensive, or made of very fine materials. Your standards on this point, and others, are very ahistoric.[/quote]

I think men should strive to imitate Christ and the Saints, so these views are based on Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, not necessarily on previous historical example. Christ would have worn simple clothing with nothing ostentatious about Him. Saint Louis IX for the most part wore a simple tunic. Sometimes he wore more expensive gowns when passing judgments or at formal functions, but for the most part he was simple as the Gospel teaches us to be.

In the end the above ideas are speculative, but I think all men should consider the Gospels and attempt to incorporate these sacred teachings into their lives.

[kafka]

[quote name='Paladin D' post='1380428' date='Sep 7 2007, 02:28 PM'](Emphasis mine)

Hold on, so Jesus sinned?


I'm 50/50 on this one. You cannot judge someone purely by their physical appearance. Accessive fat can come not just from laziness or not eating the right foods, but also can be as a result from a genetic disease or upbringing.

Also with having a muscular appearance. If you "parade" your body around, let's say by walking down the street with no shirt while flexing your arms, then yes that would be vanity. However, I see nothing wrong with wanting to go the extra mile and achieving bodily perfection, through natural means (no steriods). Does this mean US military standards are too demanding? The lower the body fat, the better it is in their eyes. I believe that a well-formed body can be used as a gift to one's spouse, what's wrong with that?
How is a simple gold chain sinful? What is the difference between a cheap gold chain, and an expensive silver one? The color?

You're nitpicking at things that in the end, do not really matter. It's attuides such as these that lead to a "holier than thou" outlook, which ultimately leads to religious [b]vanity[/b] in one's own mind.[/quote]

During the time of Christ it was customary for woman to rarely if ever cut their hair. Therefore it often fell down to their midbacks or maybe even longer. For men it was customary not to grow it beyond shoulder length. So Christ's hair may have been at shoulder length. A quick note though, there is no true historical portrait of Christ.

[Paladin D]

[quote name='kafka' post='1380438' date='Sep 7 2007, 03:37 PM']During the time of Christ it was customary for woman to rarely if ever cut their hair. Therefore it often fell down to their midbacks or maybe even longer. For men it was customary not to grow it beyond shoulder length. So Christ's hair may have been at shoulder length. [b]A quick note though, there is no true historical portrait of Christ.[/b][/quote]

(Emphasis mine)

Nonetheless, it does say a lot. Now there are many pieces of art that portray him as being that of an European, which is not exactly accurate. However, the majority of the portraits of Christ (whether depicted as an European, Middle Eastern, etc) had long hair either at shoulder length [b]or longer[/b]. Now again, this doesn't mean it's accurate, but this is my point:

If the view you just presented about men having long hair is sinful according to Scripture (which the Church enforces), why would there be an abundance of artwork that depicts Jesus Christ as having long hair? If it was sinful, why would it be inside our churches?

Edited September 7, 2007 by Paladin D

[kafka]

I think you are misreading it. Hair styles may reasonably vary from one culture to another, men should not have long hair [b] like [/b] women. Chirst's hair was not like woman's hair during his time period. Woman would rarely ever cut it and the result would be that if not braided or arranged it would fall down to the small of their back or maybe even longer.

In any culture my opinion is that a man's hair style should not be like a woman's and vice versa.

Edited September 7, 2007 by kafka

[Azriel]

So the pixie look is out for women?

[Sojourner]

[quote name='kafka' post='1380450' date='Sep 7 2007, 01:58 PM']I think you are misreading it. Hair styles may reasonably vary from one culture to another, men should not have long hair [b] like [/b] women. Chirst's hair was not like woman's hair during his time period. Woman would rarely ever cut it and the result would be that if not braided or arranged it would fall down to the small of their back or maybe even longer.

In any culture my opinion is that a man's hair style should not be like a woman's and vice versa.[/quote]


I really find it difficult to swallow your opinions about what Christ's dress habits and hair style were like. You speak so authoratatively about it, but the fact is that none of us know what Jesus' clothing or hair looked like. He might well have worn jewelry, or maybe he didn't. We don't know. And forming opinions about hairstyles and clothing based on what Christ might or might not have worn when it's impossible to know that is problematic for me.

[kafka]

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1380467' date='Sep 7 2007, 03:13 PM']I really find it difficult to swallow your opinions about what Christ's dress habits and hair style were like. You speak so authoratatively about it, but the fact is that none of us know what Jesus' clothing or hair looked like. He might well have worn jewelry, or maybe he didn't. We don't know. And forming opinions about hairstyles and clothing based on what Christ might or might not have worn when it's impossible to know that is problematic for me.[/quote]

No, if Christ's words are true in the Gospel, then we may conclude he didnt wear jewerly and wore simple clothing. We know he owned no property and had few possessions:

{8:19} And one scribe, approaching, said to him, “Teacher, I will follow you wherever you will go.”
{8:20} And Jesus said to him, “Foxes have dens, and the birds of the air have nests, but the Son of man has nowhere to rest his head.”

We can learn much about Christ in the Gospels. This is not to be underrated. Some of His words were a direct reference to Himself such as the beautitudes.

[Budge]

[quote]Excessive body fat is a sign of poor health and may sometimes be a sign of self-indulgence and laziness. But neither should men seek a physical appearance with very little body fat, in order to show off their muscles, as this is vanity (and not particularly healthy).[/quote]

There are diseases that cause obesity...use of steroid drugs etc...

Some dudes are really skinny without planning to be....

So the stuff on body weight well be careful with that stuff.
[quote]Women should not wear pants, nor should they dress or act like men, nor should they take roles intended only for men. Men must teach, lead, and use proper authority, so as to encourage, and even require, women to adhere to this teaching. Men must be teachers and leaders in proper clothing and behavior.[/quote]

Wow I thoughyt it was just some legalistic Bible bangers who requested the no pants thing. I think its legalistic, pants can be modest, ie worn with tunic, not tight, woman doing work where dress would be confining, or riding horse back.

[fides quarens intellectum]

thanks for posting this, kafka! metrosexuals, beware!

seriously, though, i'm glad you're brining up the other side of the modesty question, but you forgot (unless i missed them) about the droopy drawers and tight-fitting/somewhat transparent clothes.

by the way, the picture of the guy in your avatar (i think that's what it's called) has long hair...

[scardella]

Men shouldn't wear kilts. It's a skirt. Women wear skirts. Therefore, men should not wear kilts.

Androgyny and cross-dressing should be avoided. I think we can all agree on that, at least.

[PapaHilarious]

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1380467' date='Sep 7 2007, 01:13 PM']I really find it difficult to swallow your opinions about what Christ's dress habits and hair style were like. You speak so authoratatively about it, but the fact is that none of us know what Jesus' clothing or hair looked like. He might well have worn jewelry, or maybe he didn't. We don't know. And forming opinions about hairstyles and clothing based on what Christ might or might not have worn when it's impossible to know that is problematic for me.[/quote]

Terra, you're too intelligent to be paying attention to these never-ending, legalistic, let's-be-our-own-Magesterium threads. Let's go post elsewhere. See ya around!


Great clothing options...