Pulling Out Of Iraq

[dairygirl4u2c]

i don't know if you're saying that the US intervening would be a bad mean fora good end. but, unlike france example,

yankee. if you have facts, i will be grateful. from my experience, though, peole get facts thinking they have proved something. usually, the more you know, the more qeustions you have, and usually people have only exposed more that they do not know. unless you have a really compelling facts or something. it'd be bad enough for you to waste time getting them for me, but even worse if they proved nothing....
maybe i should be more confident in your facts.

[dairygirl4u2c]

i don't know if you're saying that the US intervening would be a bad mean fora good end. but, unlike france example, we actually caused the iraq problem.

you can't just be libertarian about necessarily, IMHO, as if it's the solution. cause we caused the prob in iraq. if you wanted to be to begin with libertarian and not invade, that's more reasonabe. if there's a chance we can help them though, i do not see how you can just brush aside the fact that we caused the problem.

[S][N]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1410086' date='Oct 27 2007, 10:00 AM']Defensive does not merely mean stopping invasion. One can travel around the world to defend or aid in the defense of others.

Anyone who thinks it's not our business doesn't understand how the world works, or how a large nation survives. The only nations who advocate non-interventionalism are those who can't interevene, or cannot on our level. Every nation does whatever it can to nudge, shove or topple every other nation in their favor. You stop playing the game, you get crushed and your people start dying.

France is a two-faced, jingoistic collection of ungrateful snobs.

And the language they're so proud of?

Altered to match their concept of classical language.

Take that, Frenchy![/quote]


Not according to your religion. You have a choice, your country or your Church. And we can clearly see so far that the Church doesn't seem to come close to the country in your eyes.

[Winchester]

[quote name='S][N' post='1410124' date='Oct 27 2007, 01:30 PM']
Not according to your religion. You have a choice, your country or your Church. And we can clearly see so far that the Church doesn't seem to come close to the country in your eyes.[/quote]
excerpt: 2309, bullet one, CCC: "The damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave and certain."

I see nothing forbidding invasion, nor the defense of other nations. Perhaps you had a specific paragraph in mind, or were you relying on personal feelings or impressions?

I expect your use of "we" was in the royal sense, or do you presume as an atheist that you speak for your community. Perhaps you think you're speaking for all Phatmass, or for the entire world. Of course, it's probably based upon your opinion that just war theory forbids going outside one's borders to deal with a threat, or to defend or aid in the defense of other nations. Perhaps you've a newer version of the Catechism, or some other Church document which you would now care to produce or cite to support your most unusual assertion. I suppose it's also possible that you, after careful study of just war theory, have come to the conclusion that a nation may only defend its own borders, and must wait to be attacked on its own ground before dealing with another nation, or may not, no matter the atrocities, come to the aid of another. In you interpretation, our initial military actions against Japan were possibly justifiable, but we were in no way justifiable in dealing with Germany. I must say that France is especially grateful America does not subscribe to this notion of just war. I am profoundly grateful that the Catholic Church does not, by a reasonable interpretation, take this line of thought, either.

[S][N]

[url="http://www.americancatholic.org/News/JustWar/Iraq/"]http://www.americancatholic.org/News/JustWar/Iraq/[/url]

Quotations:

"The capture of Saddam Hussein may help bring peace to Iraq, but it [b]does not[/b] change the fact that "the war was useless, and served no purpose," a top Vatican official said." (Emphasis my own).

"The cardinal said he hopes Saddam's capture "contributes to peace and the reconstruction of Iraq. But it would be [i]illusory to think that it will repair the damage caused by that great defeat for humanity which war always represents[/i]." (Emphasis my own)

And at the top of the page you have the following title:

- "A Catholic Theologian's Argument for War."

----------------

We all know (those who don't get grinded through the right-wing propaganda machine) that Saddam was no threat to the US. He didn't have WMDs, support terrorism or anything else the US said he did to support their conquest.


Winchester...your what true catholics call a [i]supermarket catholic[/i]. You pick and choose, interpret and praise, agree and ignore what reflects your own personal agenda. You can use the self-defense claim all you like, but you know as much as anyone that, that is complete bull. Your own actions, your own foreign policy, your intervention in other peoples countries and governments caused this. YOUR own country sowed it's own self-destruction at the hands of the impoverished, the trotten and the maltreated.

Time for you to grow some balls as a country as a whole and face the crimes your administrations, one after another commited, just like how you push the Japanese to face their own atrocities in Korea, China and to countless other countries during wartimes.

You have a choice, be catholic and follow catholic teaching, follow your Pope, Cardinals and Bishops or don't and be a [i]supermarket catholic[/i].

[Winchester]

[quote name='S][N' post='1410291' date='Oct 27 2007, 09:21 PM']
[url="http://www.americancatholic.org/News/JustWar/Iraq/"]http://www.americancatholic.org/News/JustWar/Iraq/[/url]

Quotations:

"The capture of Saddam Hussein may help bring peace to Iraq, but it [b]does not[/b] change the fact that "the war was useless, and served no purpose," a top Vatican official said." (Emphasis my own).

"The cardinal said he hopes Saddam's capture "contributes to peace and the reconstruction of Iraq. But it would be [i]illusory to think that it will repair the damage caused by that great defeat for humanity which war always represents[/i]." (Emphasis my own)

And at the top of the page you have the following title:

- "A Catholic Theologian's Argument for War."

----------------

We all know (those who don't get grinded through the right-wing propaganda machine) that Saddam was no threat to the US. He didn't have WMDs, support terrorism or anything else the US said he did to support their conquest.
Winchester...your what true catholics call a [i]supermarket catholic[/i]. You pick and choose, interpret and praise, agree and ignore what reflects your own personal agenda. You can use the self-defense claim all you like, but you know as much as anyone that, that is complete bull. Your own actions, your own foreign policy, your intervention in other peoples countries and governments caused this. YOUR own country sowed it's own self-destruction at the hands of the impoverished, the trotten and the maltreated.

Time for you to grow some balls as a country as a whole and face the crimes your administrations, one after another commited, just like how you push the Japanese to face their own atrocities in Korea, China and to countless other countries during wartimes.

You have a choice, be catholic and follow catholic teaching, follow your Pope, Cardinals and Bishops or don't and be a [i]supermarket catholic[/i].[/quote]
My, aren't we pithy!
Are you going to respond to what I said, or are you going to grind on about Iraq? I discussed just war. I did not attempt to apply it to the invasion of Iraq.
Please respond to my post, and not to your personal obsession.

The term is "cafeteria Catholic," and you've yet to prove such a dreadful accusation true. I've been called far worse by more imaginitive atheists. Am I supposed to be upset? Take a moment. Look at my avatar. Does that strike you as the avatar of someone who takes things really, really seriously? Give up trying to bait me until you get to know my real weak spots. Being accused of the cafeteria approach to Catholicism by a child tapping feverishly at his mother's computer during commercial breaks on the Cartoon Network is hardly up to snuff. I do like your name, though. Such a whimsical employment of brackets. I think brackets are hardly employed enough in screen names, and I do hope you've started a trend.

My country has also done quite a bit of good. If your country has not had a broad and far reaching effect around the globe, both for good and for ill, it is merely because it isn't powerful enough. Postage stamps can be beautiful works of art. Seemingly perfect, because the scale is so dreadfully small. The UK, for instance, during her period of expansion, abused many people. However, they also exterminated the Thugee. I am unwilling to paint with so wide a brush as you.

I understand you have an axe (axes, brushes. What metaphorical tool shall I put into your hands next?) to grind with the US. Fine. Now, what is rather disturbing, is your tone regarding my country. By your style, I am left with the impression that you don't find the deaths of innocents in terrorist attacks upsetting, provided those "innocents" are US citizens. I would guess that you think the 343 firemen killed in September of 2001 are justified. Now that would really be something. Perhaps I've misinterpreted your attitude. Perhaps one day your country will be powerful and thus have the opportunity to piss off several other countries, or perhaps not. Either way, just be the best citizen of your constitutional monarchy (A fine form of government, I must add) that you can be.

And don't forget to vote.

[S][N]

I did address your just war theory, and used the Iraq war as a prime example.

As for the rest of what you wrote...can't really say much than yet another stretch that bores me ohhhhh so much.

Come back when you learn about the real world, real political situations and not this fairyland you seem to trapped in.

Good luck.

[Justin86]

Hey S[]N, care to explain how just war [i]theory[/i] is doctrine?

[S][N]

No thanks, it's not upto me to teach you, your own faith.

[Winchester]

[quote name='S][N' post='1410385' date='Oct 28 2007, 12:45 AM']
I did address your just war theory, and used the Iraq war as a prime example. [/quote]
Really?
[quote]We all know (those who don't get grinded through the right-wing propaganda machine) that Saddam was no threat to the US. He didn't have WMDs, support terrorism or anything else the US said he did to support their conquest.[/quote]
You cited a work by a theologian. I cited the Catechism. Guess which one carries authority. Even Aquinas takes a back seat to official Church teaching. Catechisms cost about 24 US.
In your response, you discuss only the war in Iraq. You make no point about just war theory itself. You're not using Iraq as an example. You clearly applied a meaning to my post you didn't intend. Own up to it. I myself have attributed improper intent to people's words in the past. You did so here. You're only human.
[quote]As for the rest of what you wrote...can't really say much than yet another stretch that bores me ohhhhh so much.[/quote]
Bored? Really. Shucks. Certainly not my best work, I agree.
[quote]Come back when you learn about the real world, real political situations and not this fairyland you seem to trapped in.

Good luck.[/quote]
So you don't have a response or an answer. That's a shame. Look, I'm not one of those people that expects you to instantly respond. Take your time. You needn't hide behind such a front. My comments aside,

Would you care to point out the false political situations I've created? I'd love to know. Do you mean to say that the actions of the US have only been hurtful? I know at least one Vienamese family that was quite happy we went into Vietnam. I know Israelis who are happy to have our aid. They've experienced Hezbollah rocekt attacks--I reckon that's real enough?

Not to be rude, but here's the sitrep:
You know nothing or next to nothing about just war theory, and you've stuck your foot in your mouth. You are unwilling to step back, correct yourself and move on in a dignified manner. Everyone knows this, and I believe you know it. I don't think you're stupid--you know exactly what you did and you attempted to deflect attention. It didn't work. Bluff called, move your piece back and start over. I commend your combativeness, but your methods are crude. They might cut it on michaelmoore.com, but not here. Have you met Ironmonk? He'll turn you to pate if you don't step up your game.

[Socrates]

[quote name='S][N' post='1410291' date='Oct 27 2007, 08:21 PM']
[url="http://www.americancatholic.org/News/JustWar/Iraq/"]http://www.americancatholic.org/News/JustWar/Iraq/[/url]
You have a choice, be catholic and follow catholic teaching, follow your Pope, Cardinals and Bishops or don't and be a [i]supermarket catholic[/i].[/quote]
From a statement by Cardinal Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict XVI):
[quote]Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia. For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment.[b] There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia[/b].[/quote]

But hey, it's good that we have an atheist on here who apparently knows more about Catholic teaching than the Pope to keep us all straight.