Pulling Out Of Iraq

[SaintOlaf]

[quote]God forbid being wrong, or acknowledging uncertainty. that's the problem with obviouslists.[/quote]

How much of American politics are based on this? Everyone is constantly scrambling to spin doctor everything so that they look like they were right. I think every politician is guilty of this, and since the politicians control our country (and ultimately our military) we will be stuck with indecisive actions.

Honestly, I think if we were to pull out now, they country would collapse on itself and it would be even more of a disaster. Our politicians have really put us into a no-win situation, either stay and suffer American casualties as a result, or leave and watch the country destroy itself on the nightly news.

In the meantime, just pray for the troops stationed over there, and support them every way we can.

[S][N]

Awesome comeback there Winchester...no wait...it wasn't.

[Justin86]

[quote name='S][N' post='1409110' date='Oct 26 2007, 02:08 AM']Yes cause clearly the liberals are the cause for rich, right-wing, white man's want to own and control all forms of resources on this planet.

yet another tradgic victim that's been suckered into the right-wing propaganda machine.

"This is known in global politics/economics as "international trade", not "stealing"." [b]ROFL![/b] That bit was the clincher for me. Kind of like when an Israeli soldier kills a Palestine child playing soccer, and calling it self-defense eh?..

Get some sense.[/quote]
I find it amusing that when confronted with a rational argument against your hypothesis all you can do is throw out insults. Thank you for making me and American conservatives look good.

[S][N]

Sorry but you've got about as much knowledge of this as I do about quantum physics, the difference is, I recognize my own ignorance and drive to fix it. Where you prefer to stay in a state of forced ignorance.

Edited October 26, 2007 by S][N

[Justin86]

[Winchester]

[quote name='S][N' post='1409534' date='Oct 26 2007, 04:38 AM']
Awesome comeback there Winchester...no wait...it wasn't. [/quote]
You're only saying that because you don't know what an apostrophe is.

[S][N]

I do so! It's a verb!

[LoneYankee]

S][N, you have to be one of the most incredibly morbid people I have ever had to debate with.

Let me pull a few "Pros" off the top of my mind.

1.) Secure democracy for the Iraqi people.

Wait, let's stop there and define this.


---------------------
Democracy: de·moc·ra·cy /dɪˈmɒkrəsi/

–noun, plural -cies.

1. government by the people; a form of government in which the [b]supreme power [/b]is vested in the [i]people[/i] and exercised directly by them or by their elected agents under a [i]free electoral system[/i].
2. a state having such a form of government: The United States and Canada are democracies.
3. a state of society characterized by formal [b]equality[/b] of [i]rights and privileges[/i].

[size=1]"democracy." Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1). Random House, Inc. 26 Oct. 2007. <Dictionary.com [url="http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/democracy>"]http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/democracy>[/url].[/size]

- You can thank me for the bold and italics.
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Ok, now that we've established the basis for democracy, let's take a look at what Iraq had prior to our invasion, the regime under Saddam Hussein:


---------------------
Dictatoship: dic·ta·tor·ship /dɪkˈteɪtərˌʃɪp, ˈdɪkteɪ-/

–noun

1. a country, government, or the form of government in which [b]absolute power [/b]is exercised by a [i]dictator[/i].
2. absolute, imperious, or overbearing power or control.
3. the office or position held by a dictator.

[size=1]"dictatorship." Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1). Random House, Inc. 26 Oct. 2007. <Dictionary.com [url="http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/dictatorship>"]http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/dictatorship>[/url].[/size]
---------------------

So, basically, what the United States had done: Oust a dictator, attempt to instill a democracy in Iraq.

If we use the well-known transitive property, we can come up with: Take power away from a dictator, give it to the people.

It's really quite simple when you break it down.

Now, when I argue with non-Christians or "Sunday" Christians, I often hear the response, "Why should we worry about Iraq?"
Seeing as this is a predominantly Catholic member-based (practicing Catholic at that) site, I don't think I will hear anyone argue that we shouldn't help out our fellow man. I am a son of God before I am the son of an American, though I am a patriot until death. God has always wanted us to help those who are oppressed.

Were the Iraqis oppressed? Most certainly. They feared for their lives. Military intelligence was notorious for torture. Saddam was hanged by his own people for massacring a village who didn't show support for him. Saddam read off a list, at the beginning of his career, of political opponents who he claimed were "traitors." Twenty-two were killed. (Citations available upon request.)

Most importantly, freedom and power did not belong to them. God grants us freedoms (as stated in the Declaration of Independence) that no one has the right to usurp.

So the United States, as the moral entity that it can sometimes be, went in and removed this cruel man from power. Now, we are attempting to build democracy in the war-battered country. We are attempting to free the Iraqi people and give the freedoms we enjoy every day.

When you states the "Pros" of staying in Iraq, I hope you realize the main reason. To save the Iraqi people. This is the cause of our mission. This is the mission of the soldiers. They're there and they want to finish the job.

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote name='S][N' post='1409580' date='Oct 26 2007, 07:47 AM']
Sorry but you've got about as much knowledge of this as I do about quantum physics, the difference is, I recognize my own ignorance and drive to fix it. Where you prefer to stay in a state of forced ignorance.[/quote]

there's a certain degree of truth to this.

the whole point of this thread is we don't really know the details. justin said we should should stay, as we should defer to the government, assuming they know what we do not.
i'm not sure that's a safe assumption, as government is notoriously screwing things up and being unwise.
now, if he was saying we should jsut defer to teh government generally, as a sign of respect etc, then sure whatever.

if he's trying to insist that we stay, yet is assuming we don't know it all, but taht the government does and that we should stay. but he is NOT just deferring no matter the position out of respect. then he's taking just enough of the point of this thread to look good, yet remain adhering necessarily to the stay crowd. unduly, perhaps. cause like i said, they could just as likely not know what they are doing.

bottomline, we shouldn't necessarly assume they know what they are doing or that they are the wiser. we should at least be open to the opposite.

Edited October 26, 2007 by dairygirl4u2c

[dairygirl4u2c]

i remember Johnsonville brat chenney's wife made a keen obvservation. during our constituaional forming, it was chaos for a number of YEARS. we have to be realistic about how long it will take. but with that said, these are terrorists etc. in no way civil or willing to change, as opposite of our founders.

just thought i'd throw that out there. not hat it really solves anything.

[dairygirl4u2c]

anyone who insists one way or hte other.... i have many questions to pose to you, which will probably only expose that you do not know what you are talking about.

[LoneYankee]

Dairygirl, in now feasible way did you just postively contribute to this discussion. Your poorly-written post only makes me infer that you think much too highly of yourself and classify everyone else as ignorant. This thread is for civil discussion. Please keep it that way.

[S][N]

Wow Lone...that is a brilliant spin on the situation...but one fact can undo all your thinking. Now I'm not going to tell you the answer, but let you work it out for yourself.

Who installed Saddam, supported, provided chemical and biological weapons?

As for the morbid bit, just cause I'm crazy doesn't make me morbid .

[dairygirl4u2c]

people who insist on one way or the other are also acting as if anyone else is ingorant. i am turning the tables on such people, as they are usually not subject to it from the middle. only from rhetorical attacks from the other side, ie left or right.

if they are so certain, they should be happy to fill me in on my ignorance.

pepole are only ignorant of their ignorance, most likely. i'm trying to get peple to realize this.
i seriously want people who think necessarily one way or the other, to say so and answer the questions i have. i am open to them having informed and accurate views, and me being wrong even, and if they do, they should be able to withstand a few questions.

Edited October 26, 2007 by dairygirl4u2c

[dairygirl4u2c]

Loneyankee. it is you who are too highly of yourself.l

you post a smug post, calling out someone out who is being rough, granted. but, you are condescending, defining everything as you did. and then acting as if it was the only answer to invade. and then talking as if the soldiers want to stay, as if it's a fact. everyone knows people on both sides. and as if it's the only logical position to want to stay.
you contributed absolutely nothing, except rhetoric.

i, on the other hand, have shown that justin was pseudo acceping my initial premise of this thread, that we don't know the details, or can't know, and should be humble in that regard. justin didn't realie that, found a way of accepting some of my premise, and still insisting on the stay position. hte person justin was debating with, wasn't keen on pointing it out, so i did. i'm pretty sure justin would agree if he read it, and would admit it.

my position, it's okay to have a position, but not an absolute position.

you are one who insists we stay, so you wouldn't mind a few questions from me, would you?

but, i may misunderstand you, and you are open to the fact you are wrong, and leaving would be wiser? i'm trying to discern if you are an absolutist or not. if an absolutist, i have many questions for you.

Edited October 26, 2007 by dairygirl4u2c