Modesty: Does It Include Bare Shoulders In Church?

[kafka]

[quote name='Revprodeji' post='1380367' date='Sep 7 2007, 01:15 PM']Why does our clothing need to reflect that?[/quote]

Though men and woman have profound similarities, so they also have profound differences. These differences are expressed in the physical makeup of our bodies as well as in the roles God has assigned both respective sexes. Now we know because of concupiscence it is not correct, possible or fitting to go around naked, so our clothing should express and reflect our physical features as well as roles as well as modesty.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='kafka' post='1380388' date='Sep 7 2007, 12:41 PM']Though men and woman have profound similarities, so they also have profound differences. These differences are expressed in the physical makeup of our bodies as well as in the roles God has assigned both respective sexes. Now we know because of concupiscence it is not correct, possible or fitting to go around naked, so our clothing should express and reflect our physical features as well as roles as well as modesty.[/quote]
I think pants can do that for a woman as well as skirts.

[adt6247]

[quote name='Revprodeji' post='1380367' date='Sep 7 2007, 02:15 PM']Why does our clothing need to reflect that?

God did make both parties naked. I dont think Clothing is needed for gender ID.[/quote]
Clearly, the bible verse quoted earlier does. Neither men -- nor women -- should cross-dress. Mens' and womens' bodies are shaped very differently (after puberty, of course) and the different clothing styles for the different genders reflect this. I guarantee you'd look awful in your wife's pants (even if they did fit).

[kafka]

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1380392' date='Sep 7 2007, 01:44 PM']I think pants can do that for a woman as well as skirts.[/quote]

I dont think it is a significant enough of a difference.

All in all I am not attacking woman, I am criticizing our sinful secular culture and the leaders who fail to make laws based on Sacred-Tradition, Scripture and Magisterium. My posts are not meant to be personal. I have never personally criticized a woman for wearing pants nor will I ever. People need to make their own choices and figure out God's will on their own. If anything I am more critical of men. My ideas are meant for society in general.

My views are clear I feel no more need to debate here.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='kafka' post='1380399' date='Sep 7 2007, 12:58 PM']I dont think it is a significant enough of a difference.[/quote]
Obviously, you have not tried wearing women's pants ...

[N/A Gone]

[quote name='adt6247' post='1380395' date='Sep 7 2007, 01:50 PM']Clearly, the bible verse quoted earlier does. Neither men -- nor women -- should cross-dress. Mens' and womens' bodies are shaped very differently (after puberty, of course) and the different clothing styles for the different genders reflect this. I guarantee you'd look awful in your wife's pants (even if they did fit).[/quote]

Deut 22 is being taken out of context

[kafka]

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1380401' date='Sep 7 2007, 01:59 PM']Obviously, you have not tried wearing women's pants ...[/quote]

I wasnt referring to the fit, I was referring to the general appearance. Plus most modern cuts tend to be provacative and immodest on the mid section.

This is getting ridiculous, we arent debating, but merely bickering at eachother at this point.

[kenrockthefirst]

May I point out that "ludacris" is a rapper, while [url="http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ludicrous"]"ludicrous"[/url] is a word that means laughable, absurd, or ridiculous?

Back to the main topic.

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='Revprodeji' post='1380367' date='Sep 7 2007, 02:15 PM']Why does our clothing need to reflect that?

God did make both parties naked. I dont think Clothing is needed for gender ID.[/quote]
Clothing is a material expression of the values of a given culture. Most Judeo-Christian cultures in some way or another have had norms of dress that involved gender distinctions. When a woman is pregnant, the first question people ask is "Do you know if it's a boy, or a girl?" When the child is born, parents start buying frilly pink outfits for girls and simple blue outfits for boys. I recently talked to one of my friends from college, who has a three-year old. During college, she developed very egalitarian, PC beliefs and bought into the idea that gender distinctions are bad. When the baby was born, she decorated the room in gender neutral tones and bought her both boys' toys and girls' toys. She said to me, "I used to believe gender was socially constructed, but no matter what I do, she plays with dolls and wants to be a ballerina!"

It's true that God made men and women naked. But when you think about what that means you'll realize that there were (ahem) "built-in" gender distinctions already. Now that humans wear clothes, there is a natural desire for clothing to reflect these differences.

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1380392' date='Sep 7 2007, 02:44 PM']I think pants can do that for a woman as well as skirts.[/quote]

how so?

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='kafka' post='1380399' date='Sep 7 2007, 02:58 PM']All in all I am not attacking woman, I am criticizing our sinful secular culture and the leaders who fail to make laws based on Sacred-Tradition, Scripture and Magisterium.[/quote]
Do you think there should be a law against pants?

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1380401' date='Sep 7 2007, 02:59 PM']Obviously, you have not tried wearing women's pants ...[/quote]
that's a VERY good thing...

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='photosynthesis' post='1380409' date='Sep 7 2007, 01:08 PM']Clothing is a material expression of the values of a given culture. Most Judeo-Christian cultures in some way or another have had norms of dress that involved gender distinctions. When a woman is pregnant, the first question people ask is "Do you know if it's a boy, or a girl?" When the child is born, parents start buying frilly pink outfits for girls and simple blue outfits for boys. I recently talked to one of my friends from college, who has a three-year old. During college, she developed very egalitarian, PC beliefs and bought into the idea that gender distinctions are bad. When the baby was born, she decorated the room in gender neutral tones and bought her both boys' toys and girls' toys. She said to me, "I used to believe gender was socially constructed, but no matter what I do, she plays with dolls and wants to be a ballerina!"

It's true that God made men and women naked. But when you think about what that means you'll realize that there were (ahem) "built-in" gender distinctions already. Now that humans wear clothes, there is a natural desire for clothing to reflect these differences.
how so?[/quote]
While I agree with your point about intrinsic tendencies, "gender" is a social and behavioral construct that is based, in part, on "sex," not the act but primary and secondary physiological characteristic, i.e. genitals, body hair, hormones, of course, deep or high voice, etc.

[Paladin D]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1380116' date='Sep 7 2007, 12:36 AM']Common sense, people.
Modesty is good and should be encouraged, but all this nitpicking gets really tiresome and stupid really fast (I haven't bothered to read all this overlong thread) - especially this endless bickering about women's pants, etc., which seems to all too easily slide into a kind of judgmental phariseeism.[/quote]

Exactly.

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='Paladin D' post='1380413' date='Sep 7 2007, 01:14 PM']Exactly.[/quote]
Hey, everyone, let's talk about veils.

[kafka]

[quote name='photosynthesis' post='1380411' date='Sep 7 2007, 02:11 PM']Do you think there should be a law against pants?[/quote]

no, I think it should be custom. And woman should use prudence with exceptions.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='photosynthesis' post='1380409' date='Sep 7 2007, 01:08 PM']how so?[/quote]
I rarely have trouble distinguishing between men's and women's pants. While there are admittedly some styles that toe the line or cross it (boy cut jeans for women, for example), I think most styles are cut in such a way that they are unmistakably for one gender or the other.

Edited September 7, 2007 by Terra Firma