Seriously, Budge -

[Mateo el Feo]

So, if a church's women aren't covering their heads as St. Paul teaches, they are not true Bible Christians?

[XIX]

So just for the sake of clarity, you believe you have the ability to know who is saved and who isn't?

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='Budge' post='1379682' date='Sep 6 2007, 01:33 PM']You test things according to scripture.

Ie: There are scriptural precepts to test spirits, etc and more.[/quote]
Budge, even you must realize how disingenuous this sounds. Which "scripture?" The inspired KJV, the NIV, or the NAB? Whose interpretation of same - for we all interpret - the interpretation that says women [i]can[/i] teach men or the one that says they [i]can't[/i]? The interpretation that says that speaking in tongues [i]is[/i] valid for today or the one that says it [i]isn't[/i]? Ad infinitum. All from "Bible-believing" Christians, of course.

BTW, when Jesus said, "wherever two or three of you are gathered together in my Name, there will I be in the midst of you," He didn't mean that you should splinter apart into churches of only two or three members, whatever about taking the Bible "literally."

[prose]

[quote name='Budge' post='1379682' date='Sep 6 2007, 01:33 PM']You test things according to scripture.

Ie: There are scriptural precepts to test spirits, etc and more.[/quote]

Okay, please explain how exactly you test these spirits and discern which one is an ACTUAL bible christian, and which is a deceiver. For instance, you walk into a Pentecostal Church. Presumably (according to you) some in there are saved, and some are not. How do you know which person that you talk to is correct?

[homeschoolmom]

[Budge]

[quote]So, if a church's women aren't covering their heads as St. Paul teaches, they are not true Bible Christians?[/quote]

Thats a non-essential, while the people who dont cover their heads may or may not be wrong, I do not think that is an issue that would mean someone was never saved.

Novous Ordo Catholic females most of the time dont cover their heads either.


[quote]So just for the sake of clarity, you believe you have the ability to know who is saved and who isn't?[/quote]

I'm not God, but there are fruits that can be examined [I believe one fruit of salvation is a LOVE for Gods Word] and often times one will feel an instant connection with another born again Christian--"For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them.". Sometimes the Holy Spirit will give a Christian discernment either way.

[quote]Budge, even you must realize how disingenuous this sounds. Which "scripture?" The inspired KJV, the NIV, or the NAB? Whose interpretation of same - for we all interpret - the interpretation that says women can teach men or the one that says they can't? The interpretation that says that speaking in tongues is valid for today or the one that says it isn't? Ad infinitum. All from "Bible-believing" Christians, of course.[/quote]

People study all the time what Scripture.

IVe done a post on the book [i]DID THE CATHOLIC CHURCH GIVE US THE BIBLE [/i]several tiems, there I have shown you why I trust the KJV much more then the NIV or other badly Wescott and Hort transalated Bibles. I am not a KJV-onlyist--I think its foolish to believe that God gave a newly translated ENGLISH Bible when there are so many languages in the world, as "new revelation" and Ruckman is a deceiver that even shilly-shallies about the divinity of Jesus Christ but I reject the NIV and other Bibles based on false translations.

[quote]BTW, when Jesus said, "wherever two or three of you are gathered together in my Name, there will I be in the midst of you," He didn't mean that you should splinter apart into churches of only two or three members, whatever about taking the Bible "literally." saint.gif[/quote]

Read Mark 9--the one true church stuff you folks got going is wrong. There is only ONE church that does truly matter the ekkelesia, but it is not based on buildings, magisteriums or human based only institutions and brand names.
[quote]Okay, please explain how exactly you test these spirits and discern which one is an ACTUAL bible christian, and which is a deceiver. For instance, you walk into a Pentecostal Church. Presumably (according to you) some in there are saved, and some are not. How do you know which person that you talk to is correct?[/quote]

Well I haven known Pentes who have shown definite fruits of salvation, been my Christian brothers and sisters and have ALREADY visited pente churches...but there are Pente churches that have totally gone into error. This can be known by testing things against scripture, for instance the prosperity gospel, which actually directly violates many verses in scripture. For instance when I see and watch Benny Hinn, and lets say I was new to the guy, I know enough scripture and have studied Bible enough for years, to catch things that are unscriptural as he preaches them. Just like the indp Baptist preacher I caught preaching against the Bible--preaching that "no authority was to ever be questioned" [he was using this to advance his OWN authority--despotism over the church and EXTREME Dominionism--I only visited once] when even common sense, and scripture together, shows that as a lie. I almost wanted to raise my hand and say [i]well I was a cradle Catholic that means I would still be in the Catholic Church as they declared authority over my soul.
[/i]

The problem with Catholics is you poor folks have no standard to judge things by. In fact as your Popes and Magisterium morph the teachings you do have and add new ones even if rarely every 50--100 years...You have no standard to test things by...{Ie Gods Word} You are left adrift, told to trust in these men with no standard to hold them too. Even with the interfaith movement, I know the Popes have boiled Catholics like the proverbial frog in a pot. 40-50 years ago even, to hear a Catholic say all religions lead to heaven and such, or this anonymous Christian nonsense being so prevelant, would have never happened. Ive seen changes and more acceptance of the New Age and basic Universalistic beliefs even in the past 15 years.

One thing about Christians we test OURSELVES according to scripture. That is the ideal, not saying every born again Christian is perfect, but that is what you are to do. That means even if your emotions are telling you to do one thing, you stand on the Word and do what God calls you to do.

Edited September 7, 2007 by Budge

[prose]

So, back to the beginning again...

What if two of you both can use scripture to defend a position about something. How do you know who is right? Is it who you "feel" is right? Does this apply to all "Bible Christians"? Is it a gift given to you when you are saved?

Now you also said to compare things to the Bible, but then in the same thread that some things in the Bible are not necessary.

[quote]Thats a non-essential, while the people who dont cover their heads may or may not be wrong, I do not think that is an issue that would mean someone was never saved.[/quote] How do you know which is which? How do you know which verses are suggestions, and which are essential to salvation?

Edited September 7, 2007 by prose

[T-Bone _]

[quote name='prose' post='1380006' date='Sep 6 2007, 07:52 PM']How do you know which is which? How do you know which verses are suggestions, and which are essential to salvation?[/quote]

I think that you get to decide for yourself, as long as "you have the Holy Spirit."

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1379265' date='Sep 5 2007, 10:39 PM']I don't quite understand the reasoning behind the last part. could you please expound on the paradigms for me? Because the way I see it, scripture says that Christ gave us a head with authority (keys) and binding and loosing power. But, aside from that, it would make sense to have a leader or a hub to hold us together because God is a Trinity who is of utmost unity, but specifically 3 different persons. They are a community with no division. Why would God want that of his saved people? Because, these "saved" people from different denominations, some being "corrupt" are divided in different dogmas, and even doctrine at some points. God has no division, so why should we? Why can't he promise a beacon of unity for us people? Especially when we may lose our way? Also, how can an infallible book be interpreted by a fallible being? Moreover, where is the authority for personal interpretation?

Anyways, what does this verse mean?

"...there is no authority except from God, and those authorities that exist have been institued by God" Romans 13:1[/quote]


[quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1379282' date='Sep 5 2007, 10:54 PM']But, it's specific men inspired by the Holy Spirit. I don't doubt that God would continue to pick out select groups for the job. After all, one one tribe of the 12 could propagate priests. That was the Levites, if I'm not mistaken [/quote]


[quote name='Budge' post='1379287' date='Sep 5 2007, 11:05 PM']Sure but we have Gods promises about His Word and Jesus said IT IS WRITTEN.

Do you believe your Magisteruim is as "inspired" as scripture?

Im tired have to go to sleep, so this is last post for tonight...[/quote]


[quote name='Budge' post='1379682' date='Sep 6 2007, 02:33 PM']You test things according to scripture.

Ie: There are scriptural precepts to test spirits, etc and more.[/quote]

To throw on top of the pile, here is 2Peter 1:20

"First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scriture is a matter of one's own interpretation" (NRSV)

Oh, and there are still some questions to be answered on the last page.

Edited September 7, 2007 by Sacred Music Man

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='prose' post='1380006' date='Sep 6 2007, 10:52 PM']How do you know which is which? How do you know which verses are suggestions, and which are essential to salvation?[/quote]Prose said it best.

Budge, this is the problem. Your philosophy demands that each believer sets himself up as his own authority on interpreting Holy Scripture. You determine whether something in the Holy Bible is essential. You determine whether people are "saved" and/or "Bible Christians". I find it ironic that you can write the following with a straight face:[quote]The problem with Catholics is you poor folks have no standard to judge things by.[/quote]What in the world can you be talking about? What standard could possibly unite you with any significant number of professed Christians. You already reject Catholics...you reject mainline Protestants...you admit the rampant problem of false teachings in independent/non-denominational churches. What is this "standard" that you can use to discern, except your own personal opinions on any given day?

This is why protestant churches have mastered the art of division and multiplication to a level that PhDs in mathematics would envy. And that's nothing to be proud of...

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='Budge' post='1379922' date='Sep 6 2007, 07:07 PM']People study all the time what Scripture.[/quote]
Right, at arrive at different conclusions all the time. Which one is correct?

[quote name='Budge' post='1379922' date='Sep 6 2007, 07:07 PM']IVe done a post on the book [i]DID THE CATHOLIC CHURCH GIVE US THE BIBLE [/i]several tiems, there I have shown you why I trust the KJV much more then the NIV or other badly Wescott and Hort transalated Bibles. I am not a KJV-onlyist--I think its foolish to believe that God gave a newly translated ENGLISH Bible when there are so many languages in the world, as "new revelation" and Ruckman is a deceiver that even shilly-shallies about the divinity of Jesus Christ but I reject the NIV and other Bibles based on false translations.
Read Mark 9--the one true church stuff you folks got going is wrong. There is only ONE church that does truly matter the ekkelesia, but it is not based on buildings, magisteriums or human based only institutions and brand names.[/quote]
Hey, everyone, [i]Budge[/i] trusts the KJV more! End of debate. So let it be written, so let it be done. No matter that, for example, the Dead Sea Scrolls were only discovered 50-60 years ago. It's the [i]doctrinal purity[/i] that's the issue, of which Budge alone is the arbiter. Budge: A Church of One, aka the Magisterium of Budge.

[dairygirl4u2c]

budge just admit much stuff is open to interpretation. it doesn't mean your beliefs are wrong if you admit that.

[N/A Gone]

She cant. thats the box. If "things are open to individual interpretation" than our interpretation is just as valid as hers. If only she is right than anything different than that is wrong on the basis of her self-granted exegetical authority.

I dont mean that as a diss budge, its a catch-22 I have seen a bit in protestantism. I could diagram an exegetical work for purgatory using scripture only showing the need for a "final cleaning" stage of sanctification before heaven. This would be scripture only. Which means my own scriptural interpretation. But you would attack that with your own scripture understanding. Taking away my ability to use scripture alone and replacing yourself as a magistrium above me. Thus sola scripture is a myth and it is just a matter of what non authoritive guru can convince more people.

[Budge]

All this "my own scriptural interpertation" stuff is a straw man.

I read scripture and follow what it says. Its in English. Study and read the whole Bible and other scriptures interpret others.

A Christian reads and studies the BIble and digs deep for understanding along with praying for the Holy Spirit to lead them into more truth. Christians who are born again, know the multiple warnings in the Bible about error and how easily one can be deceived, so they check themselves and in prayer...

One thing interesting about the Roman Catholic church because your leadership has assumed leadership over scripture, there is no check to the magisterium except for themselves, they are the final word...[nice set-up] This essentially means they can come up with anything new or novel. While Christians are subject to Gods Word, the Catholic Magisterium is subject to no one, in other words they can make it up as they go along, morphing at least even in my lifetime even once, with a new interpretation....and using development of doctrine to hide the fact that their "interpetations" change all the time, while GOds Word is timeless and eternal.

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='Budge' post='1380537' date='Sep 7 2007, 03:32 PM']All this "my own scriptural interpertation" stuff is a straw man.

I read scripture and follow what it says. Its in English. Study and read the whole Bible and other scriptures interpret others.

A Christian reads and studies the BIble and digs deep for understanding along with praying for the Holy Spirit to lead them into more truth. Christians who are born again, know the multiple warnings in the Bible about error and how easily one can be deceived, so they check themselves and in prayer...

One thing interesting about the Roman Catholic church because your leadership has assumed leadership over scripture, there is no check to the magisterium except for themselves, they are the final word...[nice set-up] This essentially means they can come up with anything new or novel. While Christians are subject to Gods Word, the Catholic Magisterium is subject to no one, in other words they can make it up as they go along, morphing at least even in my lifetime even once, with a new interpretation....and using development of doctrine to hide the fact that their "interpetations" change all the time, while GOds Word is timeless and eternal.[/quote]
Do you really not see the logical fallacy in your position?

Budge: I read the Bible and self-check - with the help of the Holy Spirit, of course - to know that I'm not in error. My neighbor, who does the same thing, came to a completely different conclusion on a given matter. Naturally, he's wrong.

The Catholic Church: relies on 2,000 years of exegesis and has an entire hierarchy devoted to doctrinal matters, but disagrees with Budge, so is wrong.

With respect, get a clue.

Edited September 7, 2007 by kenrockthefirst