Seriously, Budge -

[Budge]

[quote]I did not call you stupid, I called you stubborn and uncaring. And I don't ask for agreement. I ask that you challenge our beliefs by knowing what we believe, and using the intellect to tell us why, not by bible thumping us and [b]throwing irrelevant articles at us...[/b][/quote]

Ever heard of projection..

stubborn and uncaring? no you didnt, you insulted my intellect, using that exact word INTELLECT.

If I didnt care I wouldnt be here.

anyhow when you call my articles irrevelant, this is just a word that you use to refuse to read them.

This is what I am talking about, when I say refusing to even look at the other side.

[Budge]

[quote]QUOTE
By the way I stand against evil in my own denimination. I am in between churches now but my last church was indpt Baptist, I did find things that concerned me, {hyles anderson, dominionism, legalisms etc} but I apply same standards there I apply to everyone else. That standard being Gods Word.
I try not to make flippant claims.[/quote]

Why do you assume that made me have a falling out with my church and to leave?

My minister rejected Dominionism, and I talked to him about some of these things Christian to Christian.

Hyles Anderson he was aware of some of the extremes.

Legalism, that too, he even preached against other fundie churches that went that way.

You know in a good Bible church one is allowed to use their mind, to even hold their own church to a standard.

I miss my old church and church family BADLY.

so dont make up stuff you dont know anything about.

[Budge]

[quote]QUOTE
By the way I stand against evil in my own denimination. I am in between churches now but my last church was indpt Baptist, I did find things that concerned me, {hyles anderson, dominionism, legalisms etc} but I apply same standards there I apply to everyone else. That standard being Gods Word.
I try not to make flippant claims.[/quote]

Why do you assume that made me have a falling out with my church and to leave?

My minister rejected Dominionism, and I talked to him about some of these things Christian to Christian.

Hyles Anderson he was aware of some of the extremes.

Legalism, that too, he and elders {had long conversation with them even on this topic at a church dinner} even preached against other fundie churches that went that way.

You know in a good Bible church one is allowed to use their mind, to even hold their own church to a standard.

I miss my old church and church family BADLY.

so dont make up stuff you dont know anything about.

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='Budge' post='1378019' date='Sep 4 2007, 05:22 PM']Ever heard of projection..

stubborn and uncaring? no you didnt, you insulted my intellect, using that exact word INTELLECT.

If I didnt care I wouldnt be here.

anyhow when you call my articles irrevelant, this is just a word that you use to refuse to read them.

This is what I am talking about, when I say refusing to even look at the other side.[/quote]
Oh please. I'm not putting up with this. You sound like a little kid trying to fight me, sometimes. I do look at the other side. That's what dialogue is about. I've looked at the side where you think we only have 9 commandments, but I think you're still flawed about that... and besides, women are not in line with possessions. They are much greater...

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1377995' date='Sep 4 2007, 05:04 PM']We don't go to your board because it is not a grounds for dialogue, but a pit full of anti-Catholics who are weeping and gnashing their teeth at us, like what you do here. If you want to have a conversation that doesn't include random source posting and ignoring using reason, then we're up for it. We are regular people who have intellects and we plan on using this gift God gave us.[/quote]
By the way, I did not insult your intellect. In that sentence, I said that we (being phatmassers) have intellects. There was no shifty undertone saying that you and your people are less intelligent. I'm just saying that it is good to use it in this situation. It has something to do with testing things... To be quite frank (and not insulting), we can not test faith by touching or tasting. And forget feelings. They are relative. We need something a little more solid like intellect.

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='Budge' post='1377964' date='Sep 4 2007, 04:47 PM']Didnt we already do that topic?

Anyhow that one was to lay the bridge work for the Assumption of Mary claims.

Cant have someone go to heaven without dying {course even thats been left to debate} since the Bible says the wages of sin are death.

Just more of the false queen of heaven, daughter of Chaldea wanting to be like the most high...

perfect and sinless supposely...

and ascending into heaven like Jesus.

Not the real Mary at all who needed savior just like everyone else.[/quote]


[quote name='Mateo el Feo' post='1377998' date='Sep 4 2007, 05:07 PM']Well, I believe that Elijah was brought up into heaven on a chariot ([url="http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/2kings/2kings2.htm#v11"]link[/url]); but I assume you wouldn't be so quick to discount his assumption into heaven as a made-up legend. Frankly, is it so strange that Christians believe that the woman who carried the Son of God in her body would be taken up into heaven at the end of her life?

As far as popes making up the Assumption as a legend, the Assumption of Mary has shown up in documents as early as the 5th century. Trying to tie the Assumption to Marian apparitions doesn't hold much water. For a decent treatment of the topic, see:

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assumption_of_Mary"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assumption_of_Mary[/url]

I would deny the Rapture theories that include Jesus coming two more times. Holy Scriptures speaks of a Second Coming, but not a third coming.[/quote]
That's what I was going to say, but you said it well...

... and then Budge ignored it.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Budge' post='1378022' date='Sep 4 2007, 06:25 PM']Why do you assume that made me have a falling out with my church and to leave?[/quote]Umm...because you wrote that you were "between churches" immediately before you mentioned your disagreements with your last church? Admittedly, I read too much into your quote; but, you still admit that your own opinion is the gold standard above the imperfect authority of the "Independent Fundamentalist Baptist" church...whatever that might be.

[quote name='Budge' post='1378022' date='Sep 4 2007, 06:25 PM']Legalism, that too, he and elders {had long conversation with them even on this topic at a church dinner} even preached against other fundie churches that went that way.[/quote]OK, so were those "fundie churches" full of truly saved Christians?

[quote name='Budge' post='1378022' date='Sep 4 2007, 06:25 PM']You know in a good Bible church one is allowed to use their mind, to even hold their own church to a standard.[/quote]Who's standard? In any event, an interesting belief, in light of [url="http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/hebrews/hebrews13.htm#v17"]Hebrews 13:17[/url].

[quote name='Budge' post='1378022' date='Sep 4 2007, 06:25 PM']so dont make up stuff you dont know anything about.[/quote]Another ironic statement.

In any event, my statement is fundamentally true, despite my slight misreading. You rejected some of the teachings of "Independent Fundamentalist Baptists." Further, you confirmed in this post that you are your own final authority over your church.

As an aside, I should note that your attitude toward your church is the hallmark of relativism.

[Mateo el Feo]

PS: Another interesting aside:

Notice Budge's inconsistency. Her advice for Catholics is to point out allegations of "evil" and argue that we should leave the Catholic Church. In contrast, she admits that there is evil (not to mention plenty of doctrines she disagrees with) in her own church denomination, yet she doesn't take her own advice and leave.

Hmmm...double standard?

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote]QUOTE(Budge @ Sep 4 2007, 02:01 PM)

One thing about people I respect is when they are willing to examine their own beliefs.[/quote]

I left Catholicism and looked into differing denominations in Protestantism and I came running back when they all left me disillusioned. One preaches this the other preaches that and none of them were APOSTOLIC. None can be traced back to the APOSTLES whom Jesus PROMISED would be with TILL the END of TIME Matthew 28:20.

They are all OFF SHOOTS of PROTESTANTISM.

As far as Budge and the rest of those who are on her board who SPEW their HATRED toward the CHURCH, they SURELY make WAR against the WOMAN, who GAVE birth to the MALE CHILD and the REST of HER CHILDREN who KEEP the COMMANDMENTS of GOD

Revelation 12

17 Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her children, those who keep the commandments of God and hold the testimony of Jesus.

[Budge]

[quote]Umm...because you wrote that you were "between churches" immediately before you mentioned your disagreements with your last church? Admittedly, I read too much into your quote; but, you still admit that your own opinion is the gold standard above the imperfect authority of the "Independent Fundamentalist Baptist" church...whatever that might be.[/quote]

What is this authority stuff.

God is the final authority.

My last pastor was a good Christian man, and I respected him.


[quote]OK, so were those "fundie churches" full of truly saved Christians?[/quote]

God would know...

if the church however was teaching a false gospel, that would be a problem...

legalism leads to a Catholic like error, go google Lordship salvation.

[quote]In any event, my statement is fundamentally true, despite my slight misreading. You rejected some of the teachings of "Independent Fundamentalist Baptists." Further, you confirmed in this post that you are your own final authority over your church.[/quote]

What fundamental or teaching did I reject?

none.

Dominionism is NOT a teaching of the Bible.

It is not an official teaching of any indpt baptist organization.

You know what is wrong with holding a church to biblical standards?

[quote]Notice Budge's inconsistency. Her advice for Catholics is to point out allegations of "evil" and argue that we should leave the Catholic Church. In contrast, she admits that there is evil (not to mention plenty of doctrines she disagrees with) in her own church denomination, yet she doesn't take her own advice and leave.

Hmmm...double standard?[/quote]

Id love to know those Baptist[b] doctrines[/b] I disagree with?

Lets here the list?

Dominionism is not a doctrine and not official in any Baptist church.

Is this some forming of a strawman?

I walked out of an indpt Baptist church in this community that taught AGAINST scripture.

So I [u]am [/u]consistent.

The problem with you folks you move out of town and the only Catholic church in town has an openly pagan priest, you still think youre to be under his authority.

[quote]As far as Budge and the rest of those who are on her board who SPEW their HATRED toward the CHURCH, they SURELY make WAR against the WOMAN, who GAVE birth to the MALE CHILD and the REST of HER CHILDREN who KEEP the COMMANDMENTS of GOD[/quote]

Why would I make war with Israel?

I support Israel in the spiritual sense all the way.

I think the real Mary was a great person and was blessed.

She doesnt have anything to do with those Roman dress wearing appartions with blue eyes showing up to fool you poor folks.

[abercius24]

Budge,

I'm glad to hear that one of us Catholics has not been the cause of your anger. I do suspect there is something else in your past that drives you, but this is not an appropriate place to discuss that.

[quote name='Budge' post='1377870' date='Sep 4 2007, 03:16 PM']Do you understand the difference between Sancitification and Justificiation?

Because it seems you dont.

Justification is when a person is saved via faith, they become an adoptive child of God. You're in the family.

Sanctification is the Holy Spirit leading a person to do works, via faith, chastisement and more.

Catholics dont seem to understand the disctinction between the two.[/quote]

Catholic doctrine teaches that we are justified by being sanctified. The concepts are intimately united in our faith.

I guess the one big thing that bothers everyone, Budge, is the unfriendly demeanor found in your posts. Yes, Jesus was harsh with the Pharisees and Saducees because they knew better and continued to mislead others. That's not us. Assuming we are lead astray, we are but poor sinners. Jesus was patient and kind with the sinners. In fact He ate and drank with sinners regularly. If you are genuinely concerned for us, can we ask you to be more friendly in your approach? I love having discussions with people who disagree with me as long as we remain friends afterwards. If we make a genuine effort to be more friendly to you, can you be more friendly to us?

Edited September 5, 2007 by abercius24

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='Budge' post='1377983' date='Sep 4 2007, 03:53 PM']Hmm I would ask your minister why he was preaching for a denomination that has hooked up with the WCC and Churches Together-a Catholic ran organization.

Maybe he was just ignorant of these facts, but that is a pretty HUGE OVERSIGHT if you ask me.[/quote]
Awesome, and entirely relevant given the [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=72449"]
Two "Bible Christians"[/url] thread going one elsewhere on this board. Here was a pastor, and a denomination, that would characterize themselves as "Bible-believing," and yet here comes "Bible-believing" Budge to say that they're not really kosher, if you'll pardon my mixing of metaphors.

To paraphrase the US Army recruitment slogan: Budge, a Church of One.

All have sinned and fall short of the glory of Budge.

[Budge]

If they are yoked to ROme they are in error.

The church most likely DOES have born again people in it, teaching salvation via faith, as for the minister, him too, very likely maybe when he finds out what the denominational level is up to he will make a stand against it.

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='Budge' post='1378755' date='Sep 5 2007, 03:52 PM']If they are yoked to ROme they are in error.

The church most likely DOES have born again people in it, teaching salvation via faith, as for the minister, him too, very likely maybe when he finds out what the denominational level is up to he will make a stand against it.[/quote]
For your delight and delectation: [url="http://www.maranathanj.org/faqs.htm"]What is the Church of the Nazarene?[/url]

Go ahead, as one "Bible-believing" Christian to another, and tell members of the Church of the Nazarene that they're "yoked to Rome."

I can't wait to see the fur fly.

[homeschoolmom]

Budge-- Is being "yoked to Rome" the same as holding traditional, historical understanding of various "essentials"?

If so, why is it a good thing to be divergent from the faith that was handed down?