Seriously, Budge -

[Dismas]

I understand about being on fire with faith. I've discussed religion with others, and even made my cases against other religions at times. I've even gotten into heated arguments.

What's your beef with Catholicism? It's not like this is the Sixteenth Century, and you are fighting for your very existence. I mean, what is the one thing that keeps you up at night seething about us? I mean seriously, do you put as much effort into attacking any other religion, or is this personal? And what's with the constant attack? Though I haven't been around too long, I've noticed a great dearth of positive, pro-Protestant messages.

I guess I just want to know in your own words, what is the thing that upsets you the most about the Catholic Church?

P.S. I'm not looking for Scripture dueling here, as there's plenty of threads and centuries of arguments that we can blast each other with. I'm just asking you.

[prose]

Out of curiosity (on the same note), do you login to JW, hindu, or Mormon websites and do the same thing?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

Just to clarify, Budge refuses to be called a Protestant, so she's not pro-Protestant (or rather, she doesn't believe herself to be). Also, the reason she hates the Catholic Church is personal: she was very poorly catechized, left the Catholic Church, and joined a cult (Unitarianism) which tries to mimic the external image of the Catholic Church and uses very twisted versions of Catholic teaching...she then left that, but is now, due to horrible catechesis, unable to distinguish between the Catholic Church and Unitarianism.

That's it in a nutshell.

[abercius24]

Dismas: Kudos to you! This is probably the first post I've seen that addresses Budge like a human being and not some kind of sideshow attraction.

Budge: I think Dismas is asking a very honest and open question of you. Aside from all the intellectual stuff, why is your heart so strongly set against Catholics? What is the source of pain that drives you so?

Edited September 2, 2007 by abercius24

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='abercius24' post='1376293' date='Sep 2 2007, 12:50 PM']Dismas: Kudos to you! This is probably the first post I've seen that addresses Budge like a human being and not some kind of sideshow attraction.[/quote]
There have been many such posts. They are rarely answered.

[jeffpugh]

Indeed. My curiosity is stirred none the less. If you may be so kind, Budge.

[dairygirl4u2c]

i think budge has issues.
she doesn't answer here. and usually avoids prolonged discussion of her believes. and by prolonged, i mean when it's actually on topic and not evasive.

i'll at least answer and try my best to engage and i think do pretty good. i prob have issues too, just not the ones budge has.

[Dismas]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1376793' date='Sep 3 2007, 01:02 AM']i think budge has issues.
she doesn't answer here. and usually avoids prolonged discussion of her believes. and by prolonged, i mean when it's actually on topic and not evasive.

i'll at least answer and try my best to engage and i think do pretty good. i prob have issues too, just not the ones budge has.[/quote]
Well, nobody goes so far out of their way to hack and slash at the beliefs of other people unless there is some feeling of threat or vengeance. And considering the vitriolic language used, it's something more than the Pope-mobile running over her cat.

I suppose the reason I posted this is that somehow, maybe she could vent her anger, instead of borrowing other peoples'. Even if she would continue to loathe the Church Visible, perhaps there could be some healing to come out of it.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1376793' date='Sep 3 2007, 12:02 AM']i think budge has issues.
she doesn't answer here. and usually avoids prolonged discussion of her believes. and by prolonged, i mean when it's actually on topic and not evasive.

i'll at least answer and try my best to engage and i think do pretty good. i prob have issues too, just not the ones budge has.[/quote]

Nah your cool. I don't agree with a lot of it, but you make people think. Budge is just annoying, though I think some of her topics have merit, though they get buried because of the ineptitude (is that a word???) of the messenger to make a basic logical argument.

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote name='Dismas' post='1376802' date='Sep 3 2007, 01:41 AM']Well, nobody goes so far out of their way to hack and slash at the beliefs of other people unless there is some feeling of threat or vengeance. And considering the vitriolic language used, it's something more than the Pope-mobile running over her cat.

I suppose the reason I posted this is that somehow, maybe she could vent her anger, instead of borrowing other peoples'. Even if she would continue to loathe the Church Visible, perhaps there could be some healing to come out of it.[/quote]

Dismas,

If you haven't been on the board that Budge operates you have not seen anything! I have actually felt nauseated when reading on her board, as all the posts of hatred and vengeance are compiled. It is like an EVIL is permeating. They feed off each others' hate for the church and her beliefs'.

[abercius24]

Despite how Budge acts out her anger (which is obviously destructive to herself and those around her), I have always found that somebody who feels the way Budge does usually has a story that nearly justifies their reaction. In fact, I would imagine that at one dark point in her life she turned to the Church for help, and she found self-righteous intolerence thrown back in her face. I've experienced that same thing at one point in my life, and I've seen it happen to others.

One of the biggest problems we Catholics face is the situation where we allow our work for holiness and truth to become more important than a fellow human being. It's a problem that is clearly not isolated to the Catholic Church, as it is part of the human condition. But the ugliest place to find it is before the backdrop of the Church that possesses such beautiful, caring saints like St. Francis of Assisi, St. Maximillian Kolbe, St. Theresa of Liseaux and Mother Theresa. The profound example of these saints creates a striking dichotomy with sin. And when we as Catholics forget to live by their examples, the world sees our sin in all too clear of a perspective. We are the guardians of holiness and truth, and when one of us does not humbly keep to that mission of MINISTRY to our fellow man, we cause more damage than we can even begin to fathom. "To whom much has been given, much will be required." We're not just Catholics in a sinful world; we are food to a starving world. And it is a terrible crime to leave a person starving because of personal discomfort, a zeal for personal righteousness, or simple impatience with the oddities of others. And I would imagine such a crime exists in Budge's case -- something we all should keep in mind when speaking to her.

And with that in mind I have just one more thing to say:

Budge I'm very sorry that someone in the Church hurt you. I am ashamed they were not there for you when you truly needed them. I understand the pain that they have stirred inside you and the constant aching that burns deep within. It's a terrible spirit of injustice that seems to never let go. Some of us know that pain, too, but in a different way. Your pain is a living testimony to the wretched state of humanity, even where that wretchedness bleeds into the ranks of our Church. Please forgive us for not being what we promised we would be. Please give us a chance to make it up to you in some way. At least give us a chance to be your friends and show you that we do care despite our own weaknesses.

Please forgive us, Budge. Please.

Edited September 3, 2007 by abercius24

[Budge]

[quote]What's your beef with Catholicism?[/quote]

1. Its false doctrine and repudiation of the true gospel of grace.

2. Its support of one world government.

3. Its leading role in the interfaith movement.

4. I believe it is the counterfeit church warned of in Rev 17

5. Fact it has led millions to hell, leading millions to hell, preaching another gospel and helping to set up things for the antichrist.

6. Yes I have posted against other false religions including Mormonism.

7. Being an ex-Unitarian Universalist, I realized that the UU church and Catholic Church are connected and teach many of the same things. {In other words I know the difference between true Christianity and the Theosophy, interfaithism and humanism of Rome}

essay I wrote acouple years ago..
[quote]New Post ESSAY I WROTE: comparing Pope and Alice Bailey Theosophist. This is an essay, a work in progress. It is not finished yet, needs more development and editing, but wanted to post what I have so far. For those who have seen this, its a work on progress so I may have added on to it here.

Preaching the New World Order with the Pope and Theosophist Alice Bailey:

For thirteen years after living as a Cradle Catholic, I was in the Unitarian Universalist church from age 18-30. For those who do not know what Uuism is, the UU church is a creedless extremely liberal church that teaches the tenets of the New Age, Humanism, and Theosophy. Unitarians in religious belief range from out and out atheists to avowed pagans. Check out www.uua.org to understand more. Little did I know as I made my venture back into the Catholic church going to what I knew as “Christian” that the Vatican would support many of the same agendas as the Theosophical Unitarian Universalists. The UU church at its core teaches that all religions lead to god—or an archetype of God.

I have explained Uuism but let me explain the tenets of Theosophy, Theosophists believe that all religions hold truths and that all religions at the core lead to God. Founded in 1890s By Madame Blatvasky, Theosophy forms the under foundation for even the modern new Age movement. The prevailing message of Theosphy which sounds just peachy-keen to the unsaved is that of “unity”. Unity of thought, beliefs and of the world. Religions are taught as being unified in core beliefs “All religions lead to god” and a panthestic notion of god promoted.

While UU I learned at the foot of my very liberal ministers who were World Federation supporterss and one interim minister who was even a signer of the second Humanist Manifesto that the only way peace could come to the world was by all religions coming together for peace and by mankind giving up divisions. I have explained some about Uuism but one main activity of UU services, is the combining of the prayers of many religions from Hindu invocations to what is called the Great Invocation. Our services would include Hindu chants, Buddhist readings and poetry. God was taught as being present in all the worlds great religions and even the lesser ones even non-theistic UUs aspired to a notion of people searching for the same great truths in this array of false religions or an “archetype” of God.

Christianity and Judaism were considered as oppressive religions in Unitarian Universalism that denied the “truths” of other world cultures. I often would hear my Unitarian ministers railing away about how Christianity brought nothing but misery to world. Alice Bailey one of Theosophy’s greatest leaders went on to say that the world's only hope laid in a new universal religion.

Here is what Alice Bailey had to say about the worlds new Universal religion:
Today, slowly, the concept of a world religion and the need for its emergence are widely desired and worked for. The fusion of faiths is now a field for discussion. Workers in the field of religion will formulate the universal platform of the new world religion. It is a work of loving synthesis and will emphasize the unity and the fellowship of the spirit. This group is, in a pronounced sense, a [159] channel for the activities of the Christ, the world Teacher. The platform of the new world religion will be built by many groups, working under the inspiration of the Christ. see note (1)

Like Alice Bailey, The Unitarian Church supports the idea of all religions and even in their case non-religions joining together. One logo for the UU church is a wheel of circles, with each circle containing a symbol for a world religion ranging from a Buddha to the Islam ***** for God. One main UU tenet is that world peace can be achieved once man realizes that the worlds religions all reach for the same thing and share a "UNIVERSAL" commonality.


The Pope too has called for the fusion of faiths also , even having meetings where the workers of religion all stand on the same platform of peace. Here is what the Pope had to say about this very recently..

"The history of relations among Jews, Christians, and Muslims shows both lights and shadows, and unfortunately some sad moments," the Pope said. In today's dangerous world, he continued, there is an "urgent need" for the world's great religions to come together, in light of their "common desire that all men be purified of the hatred and evil that always threaten peace." (2)

Both Alice Bailey, The Unitarian Universalist Church and the Pope desire for the worlds religions to join together as one. The Pope calls for purification of hatred and evil. Bailey for loving synthesis. At the core what is the difference?

The Pope has taught over and over that the Seeds of the Word lie in all religions which is an affront to every born again Christian who realizes the uniqueness of Christ. Stripping down the gospel by portending to witness by praising other religions has been the new agenda. Such beliefs have only strengthened in the Catholic church since the instituting of Vatican II beginning with Nostra Aetate. Within the last 20 years, such meetings such as the one in Assisi where the Pope met with Vooduns, Buddhists, Hindus, Conficians, Muslims and more and sponsered prayers to all these religions false gods in praying for peace have only strengthen the idea in that Catholic church that false religions lead to god even if in a deficient way. Somehow this was supposed to promote the Christian gospel without compromising it. Not one person was told that to earn eternal life they had to accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. They were instructed instead to pray to their false gods for “peace”. This of course went against Biblical mandates to not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. Many Catholic apologists often try to quell the concerns of other Catholics and Christians concerned about these actions by saying that interfaithers intend to introduce Jesus after a relationship is established. Such introductions are rare. At most of these meetings proletyzation is outlawed.

Pope John Paul II has eased out and out message of Theosophy with a Christian veneer out into the world. Believing as New Agers do, in a so called cosmic Christ though not openly admitting it, the idea is still there. The Pope has taught that all humanity has possibility of being saved by Christ even those who do not accept Him or the gospel. Now Christians know God can do whatever God desires and we cannot judge the same as God, but this goes totally against the Bible….(add verses) In fact the Pope makes this clear in his encyclical “Guadium et Spes”

“Religious differences reveal themselves as pertaining to another order…It is possible that men not be conscious of their radical unity of religion and of their insertion in the very same divine plan. But despite such divisions, they are included in the single and grand design of God in Jesus Christ, who united Himself in a certain way with every man even if he is not conscious of it” (Guadium Et Spes 22)

Through this idea of a supposed unconscious relationship with Jesus Christ, The Pope promotes basically a panethistic Christ through all religions.

Alice Bailey promoted the same universal religion—saying all were under the same “cosmic Christ” The brotherhood of man, universal brotherhood are inherently Theosophical teachings. Alice Bailey over and over refers to THE CHRIST, in her writings, a figure that will unite all religions in love.

In fact Alice Bailey says of The Christ will do the same thing and repeats the Popes belief that God works through all religions.

:God works in many ways, through many faiths and religious agencies; this is one reason for the elimination of non-essential doctrines. By the emphasizing of the essential doctrines and in their union will the fullness of truth be revealed. This, the new world religion will do and its implementation will proceed apace, after the reappearance of the Christ. (3)

The Unitarian Universalist church promotes the idea of a Cosmic Christ. With metaphysical clubs announcing over to New Age participants that there have been many Christs ranging from Buddha to Jesus. In fact I was among the UUs that once believed this. I saw Jesus Christ as a good prophet with wisdom on the same level as Muhammed and Siddhartha--(Buddha).

While the Bible clearly teaches divisions between those of God--:’Children of God” and those not of God—The Pope includes all in a new Age blend where even false religions are seen as ripe for the taking and pathways to heaven under the Novus Ordo umbrella.

Unity is the highest good in Theosophy and for 100 years the early tenets of what is known in today’s New Age movement clamored for both. Todays its liberal Protestant churches and the Vatican clamoring for the same thing with even one Cardinal stating “Dialogue or die!”

Theosophists believe in total unity, unity of thought, action, belief, everything is one, all religions are one.
Those who refuse are seen as being in the way.

While Catholics point to the Pope’s obvious universalism as a supposed new way that the Pope plans to bring peace and THEN introduce Christ to others, it is obvious within the Popes words that he does believe pathways to God do exsist in other religions. One obvious example of this is documents like Dominus Iesus stating that salvation only exsists in the Catholic church but leaving out the fact the Catholic Church umbrella has is being expanded day by day perhaps one day to include Hindus and Buddhists

Cardinal Arinze’s book…The Solidarity of the World’s Religions shows that the one world religion theme is promoted Vatican Wide. Arinze considered one of the leading candidates for the next Pope writes “With reference to other religions, the Church sees a great difference between them and herself,” Cardinal Arinze said. “The other religions are ex-pressions of the human soul seeking God, with some beautiful insights” Arinze goes on to point out errors in other religions but also speaks of their “treasures”. Rather following then the Bible which speaks of children of darkness and those being led into the ditch by the blind (false religions), The Vatican promotes the Syncretistic religion of the New World Order. While admitting the differences of Christianity, denied is the uniqueness of Christ. They teach over and over that
God is to be found in the world’s false religions.

When it comes right down to it, John Paul II and these other leaders are universalists who believe as long as someone is sincere and good they can be saved and that non-Christians can get to heaven without saving faith in Christ. The New World religion will be Interfaithism, that any religion as long as the participant is sincere are all valid pathways to God.

At one point the Pope goes as far to label prayers to false Gods as valid and called by the Holy Spirit
“All authentic prayer is called forth by the Spirit, The “Seeds of the Truth” present and active in the various religion traditions are a reflection of the unique Word of God, who “enlightens every man coming into the world and who became flesh in Christ Jesus. They are together an effect of the spirit of truth operation outside the visible confines of the Mystical Body” and which “blows where it wills”. It gets even better.

At another time the Pope writes: “The Holy Spirit is not only present in other religions through authentic ex-pressions of prayer. “The Spirits prescence and activity, “ as I wrote in the encyclical Letter, Redemptoris Missio, “affect not only individuals but also society and history, peoples and cultures and religions

The Pope sums up his Universalist beliefs in this one sentence “It will be in the sincere practice of what is good in their own religious traditions and by following the dictates of their own conscience that members of other religions respond positively to God’s invitation and receive salvation in Jesus Christ even while they do not recognize or acknowledge him as their Saviour.(*4)

(1)216.109.117.135/search/ca...1&.intl=us

(2)POPE SAYS GREAT RELIGIONS MUST UNITE FOR PEACE
Vatican, Jan. 19 (CWNews.com)

(3)216.109.117.135/search/ca...1&.intl=us

(*4) Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue-Congregation for The Evangelization of Peoples, Instruction Dialogue and Proclamation, 19 May 1991 n29; L’Ossertavore Romano English Edition, 1 July 1991, p.III).

2Cr 11:13 For such [are] false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

2Cr 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

2Cr 11:15 Therefore [it is] no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

Edited by: Budge2 at: 1/3/05 22:59[/quote]

as for the rest, cults usually claim that anyone that leaves has "problems" including psychological ones.

I started reading the Bible for myself a year before I left the Catholic church, and this is how I started asking questions, I also realized that the Catholic Church was teaching many of the same things and supporting the same political agendas as the UU church.

I have done threads proving the Catholic Church is connected to the UU, one UU prez has been to Vatican. the Vatican is also working closely with WCRP a UU founded interfaith group.


By the way why wouldnt someone be "angry" at a cult that is leading millions to hell or even has loved ones of theirs in its bondage?

I was friends with most people in my last Catholic Church, volunteered there, I have no horror stories ofa buse or anything like that. I got along with the priest--had 2 hour conversation before I left, was good frriends with RE Director and other church volunteers and have many loved Catholics in my life. The nuns who educated me didnt beat me with rulers either, and I was friends with them including acouple sisters Id go and visit the convent at.

So abericus why you meant well, I did not leave the Catholic Church because someone upset me. I left because of the false doctrine. I see YOU FOLKS as the victims. You are being taught wrong things, being taught unbiblical things, being taught interfaithism and other false things from Rome.

Cant you folks realize that a person can believe different and realize the Catholic Church is phony and teaching another gospel and LEAVE?

[kenrockthefirst]

Budge, assuming that what you say is correct, that the Catholic Church is a false church, preparing the way for the Anti-Christ, etc., what's your solution? You offer us nothing, no positive vision, only criticism. With respect, the obnoxiousness of both your message and demeanor will not lead anyone to your point of view. And please don't trot out, "sometimes the truth hurts" or any of that nonsense -- it's purely the obnoxiousness of your message and demeanor that undermines what you're trying to "share."

Think about it.

[dairygirl4u2c]

it's a good point to say that cults call leaves psycho messed up. but, it's also important to know that that's not always the case that they are unhealthy cults when they say that.

my concern is that budge doesn't engage is very in depth discussion of beliefs. i suppose though that i want someone to argue something i dn't already know and she is letting me down. i probably understand that arguments better than she does and that blinds me. i should also realize, but i don't because i'm not looking for it, really bad arguments or lack thereof from catholics. i do see lots of good arguments though from them, as they are good at it, so i don't attack them as much.

to be clearer, the cathlics argue pretty good and i have a bias that i want to see good noncatho arguments.

i do havea bias against the CC, and want more arguments so that i am not proven wrong. ultimately, i want to be proven wrong if that is the case but i'm just saying this shades my perspective.

Edited September 4, 2007 by dairygirl4u2c

[dUSt]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1377716' date='Sep 4 2007, 11:30 AM']to be clearer, the cathlics argue pretty good and i have a bias that i want to see good noncatho arguments.

i do havea bias against the CC, and want more arguments so that i am not proven wrong. ultimately, i want to be proven wrong if that is the case but i'm just saying this shades my perspective.[/quote]
I think this is more honest than most people are capable of. I'll be the first to admit that I even find myself being dishonest with myself, when I don't want to be what is true be true.

Wait. I don't think that made sense... or am I just being dishonest when I think that? Wait. I think that was honest.

Oh, forget it.