Holistic Medicine, The Soul, The Body, Etc.

[The Joey-O]

[quote name='Revprodeji' post='1380362' date='Sep 7 2007, 01:07 PM']I understood. I just dont buy it. To say "the soul cant" is to say the problem is with the soul.[/quote]

No. You aren't understanding me. The problem isn't of the soul. The soul is fine. The body, which is the soul's means of material action, is defficient, thus the soul can't "express" something material. A blind guy's soul is just fine. He can't express sight through the soul, because the body is damaged and the body is the means through which the soul expresses sight. The soul still has the power of sight, it just can't express it, because the body is limited.

[quote name='Revprodeji' post='1380362' date='Sep 7 2007, 01:07 PM']Now, what makes a soul deffificent? We can have a sanctification talk here. But I dont think the 2 are related. sometimes the eyes just dont work. The machine is broken, nothing wrong with the driver. It isnt a matter of "the soul able to express sight" because sight is a physical trait performed by the eyes. Which apparently are broken.
no, thats not it. The body is a tool, it is a part of the "whole" of us, but it is broken, it sometimes smells of elderberries and we deal with it. Just as there are ways to make our soul healthy and functional there are ways to make our body healthy and functional. But sometimes you break something. Has nothing to do with the soul, rather just the fact you tripped.
Pron is a material thing that can affect the soul. There are many things "of the flesh" the affect the soul.
...
careful...if soul is foundation what is body? Extra/not needed?[/quote]

Everything a person does or is has to do with the soul. That's why it's called an essence. It's the foundation. So, it is impossible for the body to be deficient and not limit the soul's expression. Expression is the key word here. It's not the soul lacks the power/ability/faculty, it's that the body is damaged and the soul can't express the power/ability/faculty that it has. This is basic philosophy of the soul, it shouldn't be a point of contention.

[quote name='Revprodeji' post='1380362' date='Sep 7 2007, 01:07 PM']Perhaps. But in your analogy I assume will/mental is the same as soul...right?(just answer the question, dont debate 2 or 3 we did that before and it was annoying)[/quote]

The will and intellect are not the same as the soul, they are distinct powers of the soul (they aren't parts, because the soul has no parts (no immaterial thing can have parts)). But the soul is a lot more than the will and intellect.

[quote name='Revprodeji' post='1380362' date='Sep 7 2007, 01:07 PM']I would say there are actions that affect the soul in a postive (prayer) or negative (lust/pron) but you could also have morally neutral actions. Such as walking.[/quote]

These actions only affect the soul, because the soul effects the actions. Because the soul is at work behind every action (the will and the intellect interplay, you know this), there is a spiritual elament to every action.

[quote name='Revprodeji' post='1380362' date='Sep 7 2007, 01:07 PM']This is kind of what I said above. I agree. The problem is how does this relate to your busted eye? Sanctification does not reflect blindness, damnation does not reflect blindness.[/quote]

What I was trying to explain is that it's not the material that affects the soul, rather the immaterial. So, prayer effects the soul, because it has an immaterial component. On the other hand, a blind person's blindness has no effect on the soul. The power of sight (which exists essentially in the soul) cannot be expressed materially. That doesn't mean that the soul is defficient, it's the material that's defficient.

[quote name='Revprodeji' post='1380362' date='Sep 7 2007, 01:07 PM']The reason holistic medicine works is due to the way your body releases chemicals. There is a direct connection with endorphins and attitude. Your body will give more juice if you think the juice does something for you. Now, if you think this because your doctor is encouraging you to do physical therapy, or if you pray to a cow, or if you pray to St. (do we have a midget parapalegic saint? cause that would be cool) the fact is you have found a way to convince your mind that your body can heal.[/quote]

Sure, the release of chemicals, the body's somatic response. But what is that response to? It's to an immaterial reality. "Calming down" can be evidenced in the body, but it is not a material action. It is litterally working on the virtue of peace.

[N/A Gone]

I think we are agreeing, just confused with each other. I agree with everything you wrote but could you re-clarify that last part?

[quote]Sure, the release of chemicals, the body's somatic response. But what is that response to? It's to an immaterial reality. "Calming down" can be evidenced in the body, but it is not a material action. It is litterally working on the virtue of peace.[/quote]

[The Joey-O]

[quote name='Revprodeji' post='1380484' date='Sep 7 2007, 03:36 PM']I think we are agreeing, just confused with each other. I agree with everything you wrote but could you re-clarify that last part?[/quote]

It sounded like you were saying that counseling or a paramedic calming down a victim was not an example of holistic medicine, because they were just bodily reactions. I was trying to show that, yes there is a bodily reaction (there's always a bodily reaction in medicine). What you need to consider is what's causing those chemicals to release.

I'll do my best to diagram it quickly.

The person is injured and panicked. --> A paramedic arrives to assist the person. --> The paramedic talks to the person. --> The person hears the words. --> The words are considered, meaning is discerned, panicking subsides (an immaterial action, involving the intellect, in response to the words of the paramedic). --> Adrenals subside, the heart slows, other chemicals and hormones are released, etc. (This is the somatic response).

[N/A Gone]

[quote]It sounded like you were saying that counseling or a paramedic calming down a victim was not an example of holistic medicine, because they were just bodily reactions. I was trying to show that, yes there is a bodily reaction (there's always a bodily reaction in medicine). What you need to consider is what's causing those chemicals to release.[/quote]

Holistic medicine in most critiques is usually the alternative medicine stuff. The chanting, the "spirits" all the bad things we make fun of yoga for. If we are using a large view of the term than it includes chiropractics and acupuncture. I was making my judgement strickly from the debated side. They weird "open yourself up to spirits" meditation. Basically stuff Ive learned in psyop. You should have figured that.


[quote]I'll do my best to diagram it quickly.

The person is injured and panicked. --> A paramedic arrives to assist the person. --> The paramedic talks to the person. --> The person hears the words. --> The words are considered, meaning is discerned, panicking subsides (an immaterial action, involving the intellect, in response to the words of the paramedic). --> Adrenals subside, the heart slows, other chemicals and hormones are released, etc. (This is the somatic response).[/quote]

Thats not considered Holistic medicine, thats standard first aid treatment for the prevention of shock. I taught that at TcAp last year. The genre of holistic medicine is more than this, this is just good medical reaction. Im not debating the importance of human interaction.

What exactly are you looking for or trying to discuss? Im confused.

[The Joey-O]

[quote name='Revprodeji' post='1380538' date='Sep 7 2007, 04:34 PM']Holistic medicine in most critiques is usually the alternative medicine stuff. The chanting, the "spirits" all the bad things we make fun of yoga for. If we are using a large view of the term than it includes chiropractics and acupuncture. I was making my judgement strickly from the debated side.[/quote]

I don't think chiropractics should be considered, except for the relaxational value of it. Otherwise, there's no point at which there is a spiritual stimulus. Stick to the definition I gave for this discussion, please. An immaterial stimulus with a somatic response.

[quote name='Revprodeji' post='1380538' date='Sep 7 2007, 04:34 PM']Thats not considered Holistic medicine, thats standard first aid treatment for the prevention of shock. I taught that at TcAp last year. The genre of holistic medicine is more than this, this is just good medical reaction. Im not debating the importance of human interaction.[/quote]

Look, the usual definition of holistic medicine is medicine that treats a specific problem by benifiting the whole person. This was too broad, so I narrowed it down to medicine that treats with an immaterial stimulus with the intention of having a somatic response.

I also think your muddying alternative medicine with holistic medicine. Both areas are muddy on their own, they don't need to be muddied together.

[quote name='Revprodeji' post='1380538' date='Sep 7 2007, 04:34 PM']What exactly are you looking for or trying to discuss? Im confused.[/quote]

Exactly what I said before, "Medicine that seeks a somatic response from a non-somatic stimulus". Somatic means bodily. Another way to say it is: Medicine that uses an immaterial means to treat a material, bodily injury.

What I'm trying to do is show how we already accept this in counseling and basic medical techniques. We already recognize the importance of treating the mind/soul in order to aid heal the body. Can we go further with this? Obviously, there's some places we can't/shouldn't go (inviting spirits to come and "heal" our bodies). Obviously, there's some areas that should receive more study (meditating, prayer, etc.). But there are some things that fall outside those categories of "inviting spirits" and standard acceptable, holistic practices.

In the specific instance of the guy who was helped healed by yoga, he claims that the yoga helped heal him. This was because he had no improvement until he began yoga. Since starting yoga, he has improved a lot, physically as well as mentally. This was just an example. I chose it, because I wanted to explore the possibility of somehow reconnecting with a part of one's soul that cannot be expressed because of a disability. The language of reconnection is wrong, but I'm not sure what other word to use. It's like when someone blocks out something, mentally. The person isn't actually sealing that thing off, disconnecting it from the mind, the person just has extremely limited access to it. Perhaps, this is similar to what happens when we have a disability. The body is injured and, therefore, cannot receive that particular power/ability/faculty in a typical way anymore. But, maybe its possible to either receive it in an alternative way or encouraging the healing of the body through some way involving an 'unblocking' or 'reconnecting' (again bad words). I'm not looking for a "yep, that's the way it's done", because this is a relatively unexplored area. I'm looking for a "that's worth further exploration" or "that is untennable and should not be pursued further".

[N/A Gone]

[quote]I don't think chiropractics should be considered, except for the relaxational value of it. Otherwise, there's no point at which there is a spiritual stimulus. Stick to the definition I gave for this discussion, please. An immaterial stimulus with a somatic response.[/quote]

What? Make up your mind. Chiropractics is considered a form of holistic medicine. Even the God Wikipedia agrees.

[quote]Look, the usual definition of holistic medicine is medicine that treats a specific problem by benifiting the whole person. This was too broad, so I narrowed it down to medicine that treats with an immaterial stimulus with the intention of having a somatic response.[/quote]

But thats not the standard defination of Holistic medicine. We are no longer arguing the issue, but rather arguing words now. You made up a different genre and term now.

[quote]I also think your muddying alternative medicine with holistic medicine. Both areas are muddy on their own, they don't need to be muddied together.[/quote]

officially, alternative medicine is a form of holistic medicine. They are not different things.

[quote]Exactly what I said before, "Medicine that seeks a somatic response from a non-somatic stimulus". Somatic means bodily. Another way to say it is: Medicine that uses an immaterial means to treat a material, bodily injury.[/quote]

So when you get hit in the head and you breathe and calm down. You would call that holistic? btw, using biochem and physiology there is nothing we can "do" that doesnt have a physical response. So the "immaterial" means actually produces and works with a physical trigger/response

[quote]What I'm trying to do is show how we already accept this in counseling and basic medical techniques.[/quote]

Under your def, yes. But we dont accept holistic medicine in this way. I agree with you here.

[quote]We already recognize the importance of treating the mind/soul in order to aid heal the body. Can we go further with this? Obviously, there's some places we can't/shouldn't go (inviting spirits to come and "heal" our bodies). Obviously, there's some areas that should receive more study (meditating, prayer, etc.). But there are some things that fall outside those categories of "inviting spirits" and standard acceptable, holistic practices.[/quote]

The reasons we promote things in the mind is because of the physiological response it causes to the body. An atheist will try and calm their patient down, or sooth them. Not because they even believe in the soul. But rather because of the chemical response.


[quote]In the specific instance of the guy who was helped healed by yoga, he claims that the yoga helped heal him. This was because he had no improvement until he began yoga. Since starting yoga, he has improved a lot, physically as well as mentally.[/quote]

Yoga is stretching and calming down. Maybe he started "believing" he could get better which is a big part of it.


[quote]This was just an example. I chose it, because I wanted to explore the possibility of somehow reconnecting with a part of one's soul that cannot be expressed because of a disability. The language of reconnection is wrong, but I'm not sure what other word to use. It's like when someone blocks out something, mentally. The person isn't actually sealing that thing off, disconnecting it from the mind, the person just has extremely limited access to it. Perhaps, this is similar to what happens when we have a disability. The body is injured and, therefore, cannot receive that particular power/ability/faculty in a typical way anymore. But, maybe its possible to either receive it in an alternative way or encouraging the healing of the body through some way involving an 'unblocking' or 'reconnecting' (again bad words). I'm not looking for a "yep, that's the way it's done", because this is a relatively unexplored area. I'm looking for a "that's worth further exploration" or "that is untennable and should not be pursued further".[/quote]

I just really dont like this language. dunno why. Not just the words but the concept seems weird to me.

[The Joey-O]

[quote name='Revprodeji' post='1380658' date='Sep 7 2007, 07:10 PM']I just really dont like this language. dunno why. Not just the words but the concept seems weird to me.[/quote]

Then why are you posting?

[N/A Gone]

What? I cant post now because the terms you use to describe something that smells like hippy madness bothers me?

Your nipples are mine!!!!


btw, you started the thread with "what do you think" so Im telling you. Thats why im posting.