Holistic Medicine, The Soul, The Body, Etc.

[The Joey-O]

I've been wondering about the rise in the prevalence of holistic medicine. Initially, I was against it, because much of it is based in Eastern religious practices. However, I've been thinking about the relationship of the soul to the body, and it's made me reconsider my opinions about holistic medicine.

Here's what I've been thinking about: There is a unity between the soul and the body, at least in as much as the soul is the Formal Principal of the body. We already say that the mentally/physically challenged are not deficient in the soul. Rather, they're bodily deficient, and this bodily deficiency is limiting the full expression of the soul (not that it's sinfully deficient, just not a full expression, and therefore deficient). A surgery to correct blindness, would allow for a greater expression of the soul (expressed through site).

In the case of much of holistic medicine, the focus is often in recovering the spiritual expression (for lack of a better word), despite a bodily deficiency. This is done through many ways, including coming to terms with the reality of the bodily deficiency.

Is it possible that holistic techniques have good results, not because people are becoming one with Brahaman, but because people are recovering a spiritual expression that is in some way connected to the bodily deficiency?

What do you think?

Edited August 31, 2007 by The Joey-O

[Totus Tuus]

Personally I don't know a whole lot about this. Is all of holistic medicine based on Hindu philosophy?

[The Joey-O]

[quote name='Totus Tuus' post='1376148' date='Sep 2 2007, 12:25 AM']Personally I don't know a whole lot about this. Is all of holistic medicine based on Hindu philosophy?[/quote]

No. Holistic medicine isn't [i]necessarily[/i] tied to any religion. It's most popular with Budhists, I think.

People who try to analyze holistic medicine "scientifically", usually say that it benifiting one part of the body, "synergistically" benefits the whole.

This, however, is false. The reason why holistic medicine has traditionally been seen as religious is because holistic medicine traditionally claims that benifiting the soul will benifit the body and benefiting the body will allow for a better expression of the soul.

I thought that holistic medicine would make a lot of sense in the context of Christianity, since Christianity sees a strong connection/relationship between the soul and the body.

[Totus Tuus]

I guess the principles USED for aiding the soul-body-soul process would have to be Christian (or at least Judeo-Christian) to be acceptable then, but I am not really qualified to give anything but an opinion


Personally I'd look at Church statements on health care and medicine to find out what the most encouraged methods of healing are. Modern medicine is definitely a good thing in most respects and I believe it should be utilized.

Interesting topic, though. I hope you get more responses because I'm interested in learning more.

Edited September 4, 2007 by Totus Tuus

[cmotherofpirl]

Considering the relationship between body and soul, the first you should do with being faced with a serious illness is go to confession

[beatty07]

Christianity does seem to provide a coherent basis for healing techniques like that. The bottom line, i think, is do what works. As long as it isn't actually contrary to the Faith, like Yoga can be when people get really deep into it, or something like that.

There's certainly something to Eastern techniques that Western medicine respects and doesn't claim to understand. Accupuncture, for instance, works. We haven't a clue why.

[N/A Gone]

Eat well, sleep well, go to confession drink alot of water and make love to your wife whenever possible.

No need for holisitic medicine.

On the real, anytime you deal with spirits it is a risky business. The idea of connections in body and soul are something most faiths believe, but the methods to how they connect and what you are exactly doing can be a scary thing.

Wanna talk specifics you know how I roll.

[Lena]

Holistic medicine is interesting. I know someone who is heavily into natural foods, pure living, and holistic medicine. For example, he makes ginger tea for upset stomaches instead of taking a pill.

Herbs have been used for centuries, long before modern medicine, to cure aches and illness, or at least help alleviate the symptoms. At least, that's what I think of when I hear "holistic medicine." But we're a pill-popping culture--I know I take my fair share. I like learning about holistic health though, as much as I appreciate modern medicine's advances.

[The Joey-O]

[quote name='Revprodeji' post='1377681' date='Sep 4 2007, 10:49 AM']Eat well, sleep well, go to confession drink alot of water and make love to your wife whenever possible.

No need for holisitic medicine.

On the real, anytime you deal with spirits it is a risky business. The idea of connections in body and soul are something most faiths believe, but the methods to how they connect and what you are exactly doing can be a scary thing.

Wanna talk specifics you know how I roll.[/quote]

Ok. There was a special on NPR (settle) about a guy who lost the use of his legs in an accident. He said that he was depressed and miserable about it, until he, 1. came to terms with the accident; 2. came to terms with the fact that his legs were damaged; and 3. began to reconnect with his legs, "spiritually". He claimed that after he reconnected spiritually with his legs, he was able to steadily regain partial use of his legs. He said his legs went from 0% capability to 20%.

Now, he used Yoga. I know its not good, especially when your in as deep as this guy was. However, what if it wasn't some funky religion that helped him. What if he was genuinely able to reconnect with the part of his soul that was normally expressed in his legs. I know this is a big what if. And, the answers will probably be, "it's too dangerous to try to figure out if its true". But still...what if...

[N/A Gone]

[quote name='Lena' post='1379109' date='Sep 5 2007, 09:35 PM']At least, that's what I think of when I hear "holistic medicine."[/quote]

Problem with this is it is a loaded term. Taking Herbs and eating healthy is gravy. I do that. I work with a nutrition company so Im all about that.

Technically, "holistic medicine" refers to a philosophy of medical care that views physical, mental, and spiritual aspects of life as closely interconnected and equally important approaches to treatment. While frequently associated with alternative medicine, it is also increasingly used in mainstream medical practice as part of a broad view of patient care.

So there are parts of it that are fine, but there are parts of it that can open the door to some unneeded things.


The Joey-O'

[quote]NPR (settle)[/quote]

nice.

[quote]about a guy who lost the use of his legs in an accident. He said that he was depressed and miserable about it, until he, 1. came to terms with the accident; 2. came to terms with the fact that his legs were damaged; and 3. began to reconnect with his legs, "spiritually". He claimed that after he reconnected spiritually with his legs, he was able to steadily regain partial use of his legs. He said his legs went from 0% capability to 20%.[/quote]

Heard cocaine can give similar results. And real Physical therapy can even do better. The question here would be what exactly did he do to get these results? The act of "calming down" alone can help. Much of recovery is mental and simply believing you can do it. What exactly does he mean "reconnect spiritually"? We can analyze the problems with this logic, but also does this logic reconcile itself with the churches teaching on the relationship of Body and Soul?

[quote]Now, he used Yoga. I know its not good, especially when your in as deep as this guy was. However, what if it wasn't some funky religion that helped him. What if he was genuinely able to reconnect with the part of his soul that was normally expressed in his legs. I know this is a big what if. And, the answers will probably be, "it's too dangerous to try to figure out if its true". But still...what if...[/quote]

My wife was certified in yoga. Ive done some of it before as a possible option for my back. If you understand it just as stretching, breathing and relaxing then we can do that while watching the purple on sunday. You can get those benefits without the weird x-files stuff

The "what if" could have 2 problems. 1.) Is the risk worth it? You can be open to things. Trust me hear, you know what Im saying. 2.) Does our theology teach that the soul can be split when the body is split? Does this mean that as my skin flakes I have less soul? Does this mean that with my bad feet does my soul have problems? Only thing I can think of off the top of my head is Athansius and Irenaus(sp) speaking about what happened to the martyrs that were burned alive or cut up and ate by dogs. What would happen to their ressurected bodies? The answer in a nutshell is that God would straighten it out. (Weedman Intro to theology)

[N/A Gone]

btw..notice that I can change my title and you cant!!!!!

[The Joey-O]

[quote name='Revprodeji' post='1379325' date='Sep 6 2007, 12:23 AM']Heard cocaine can give similar results. And real Physical therapy can even do better. The question here would be what exactly did he do to get these results? The act of "calming down" alone can help. Much of recovery is mental and simply believing you can do it. What exactly does he mean "reconnect spiritually"? We can analyze the problems with this logic, but also does this logic reconcile itself with the churches teaching on the relationship of Body and Soul?
My wife was certified in yoga. Ive done some of it before as a possible option for my back. If you understand it just as stretching, breathing and relaxing then we can do that while watching the purple on sunday. You can get those benefits without the weird x-files stuff[/quote]

While I'm not sure what he meant exactly by reconnecting spiritually, I can generally answer the rest. He had been doing physical therapy (he made it sound like he did it for a while without any results). The act of calming down and becoming ok with his condition is part of holistic medicine. Technically, if counseling has a somatic response, its holistic.

[quote name='Revprodeji' post='1379325' date='Sep 6 2007, 12:23 AM']The "what if" could have 2 problems. 1.) Is the risk worth it? You can be open to things. Trust me hear, you know what Im saying. 2.) Does our theology teach that the soul can be split when the body is split? Does this mean that as my skin flakes I have less soul? Does this mean that with my bad feet does my soul have problems? Only thing I can think of off the top of my head is Athansius and Irenaus(sp) speaking about what happened to the martyrs that were burned alive or cut up and ate by dogs. What would happen to their ressurected bodies? The answer in a nutshell is that God would straighten it out. (Weedman Intro to theology)[/quote]

Obviously, you don't want to open yourself up to other things. The premise I'm working with here, is that he wasn't inviting spirits to come and heal him, he was exploring his own soul. I'm not totally sure how one "explores one's own soul" save meditation, contemplation and prayer.

As far as the rest of your questions go: The church teaches that the soul is simple (essentially one), so I'm not saying that his soul was actually divided. The church also teaches that in people with disabilities, it's not that there soul is defficient, it's that the physical body is incapable of allowing the soul to be expressed in a certain way. Blind people do not lack the "part" (I use the word "part" lightly, the soul does not have parts) of the soul that gives sight, they lack something physical that doesn't allow that part of the soul to be expressed. I'm not entirely sure what he meant when he said he "reconnected" with that part of his soul (I know that Buddhists and most hippies follow loose Platonic truisms about the soul, such as the soul being simple (this is cuz it's a philosophical principle more than a point of faith)). I was hoping part of this conversation would explore the idea of what he meant by "reconnect".

[N/A Gone]

[quote]While I'm not sure what he meant exactly by reconnecting spiritually, I can generally answer the rest. He had been doing physical therapy (he made it sound like he did it for a while without any results). The act of calming down and becoming ok with his condition is part of holistic medicine. Technically, if counseling has a somatic response, its holistic.[/quote]

Why is that considered Holistic? Technically every recovery program from addictions to physical issues teach to calm down. Sometimes they give you help Coming to realization of the condition isnt holistic medicine as much as the common sense needed response. Even first aid response teaches the importance of calming the patient down.


[quote]The premise I'm working with here, is that he wasn't inviting spirits to come and heal him, he was exploring his own soul. I'm not totally sure how one "explores one's own soul" save meditation, contemplation and prayer.[/quote]

Then this isnt "really" holistic medicine in the classic sense. You are just meditating. Thats part of a healthy life. The reason people attribute it to eastern holistics is often because that is the only non-christian deity option. to contemplate and be calm and reflect needs your focus to go somewhere. We focus on God. Hippies focus on "the universe as a tree" see my point? Sad enough, from a pure parapsychological sense you are opening yourself up to "more" depending on what you are focusing on.

[quote]church also teaches that in people with disabilities, it's not that there soul is defficient, it's that the physical body is incapable of allowing the soul to be expressed in a certain way.[/quote]

-I dont doubt you fluff, but could you cite that?
[quote]Blind people do not lack the "part" (I use the word "part" lightly, the soul does not have parts) of the soul that gives sight, they lack something physical that doesn't allow that part of the soul to be expressed.[/quote]

Or their eyes just dont work. This is a theodicy issue here. Some people would argue that the spirit is disconnected. (id love to be in a human disease class with them) to lend credit we know that Christ treated disease as a spiritual issue. Boyd made the comment that all disease Christ treated as if the person was a war casuality. Get rid of the evil spirit and move on. Then again, there are ways we could object to this and say "christ could heal the broken eye, or christ just did not deal with the people who were sick for physical reasons" but I dont like the language of "lacking something physical that does not allow the soul to be expressed"

[quote]I was hoping part of this conversation would explore the idea of what he meant by "reconnect".[/quote]

I guess it depends on the premise. Personally, I dont think the "soul" disconnects. It makes no sense to me.

[The Joey-O]

First off, Rev, I don't think you understood anything I said.
[quote name='Revprodeji' post='1380302' date='Sep 7 2007, 11:15 AM']Why is that considered Holistic? Technically every recovery program from addictions to physical issues teach to calm down. Sometimes they give you help Coming to realization of the condition isnt holistic medicine as much as the common sense needed response. Even first aid response teaches the importance of calming the patient down.
Then this isnt "really" holistic medicine in the classic sense. You are just meditating. Thats part of a healthy life. The reason people attribute it to eastern holistics is often because that is the only non-christian deity option. to contemplate and be calm and reflect needs your focus to go somewhere. We focus on God. Hippies focus on "the universe as a tree" see my point? Sad enough, from a pure parapsychological sense you are opening yourself up to "more" depending on what you are focusing on.[/quote]

Holistic medicine is: Medicine that seeks a somatic response from a non-somatic stimulus. In other words, when someone tries to achieve a bodily reaction from doing something immaterial, like mental or spiritual exercises, that someone is practicing holistic medicine. We already have a lot of holistic techniques that are used in hospitals, physical therapy, nutrition, etc. However, they have only a very shallow acceptance. For example, calming a person down has a somatic response in heart-rate that is universally recognized. Another example is counseling. A person who is depressed has a much slower recovery rate than someone who isn't. Also, changing the decoration in hospital rooms to make them a more comfortable environment is an example of holistic medicine. Holistic medicine has received some acceptance, especially in psychological and/or "mental" contexts. Sometimes, spiritual practices are starting to be encouraged. However, it's usually left up to the individual to decide what spiritualities to pursue.

[quote name='Revprodeji' post='1380302' date='Sep 7 2007, 11:15 AM']-I dont doubt you fluff, but could you cite that?
Or their eyes just dont work. This is a theodicy issue here. Some people would argue that the spirit is disconnected. (id love to be in a human disease class with them) to lend credit we know that Christ treated disease as a spiritual issue. Boyd made the comment that all disease Christ treated as if the person was a war casuality. Get rid of the evil spirit and move on. Then again, there are ways we could object to this and say "christ could heal the broken eye, or christ just did not deal with the people who were sick for physical reasons" but I dont like the language of "lacking something physical that does not allow the soul to be expressed"
I guess it depends on the premise. Personally, I dont think the "soul" disconnects. It makes no sense to me.[/quote]

The phrase "Or their eyes just dont work" is exactly what I meant. Again, you didn't understand what I was saying at all. The soul is in no way defficient in a blind person. The soul is not able to express sight, because the "eyes just dont work".

Perhaps you take issue with the concept of the soul being expressed through the body. The word "expression" is used to show the one way relationship here. The soul cannot be affected by material things, since it is immaterial. However, it affects the material. The whole body and every activity "begins" in the soul, as the soul is the foundation for the person. When a person walks, it is an expression of the soul, just as prayer is. Certain actions have consequence spiritually (and therefore on the soul), not because the material affects it. Rather, because the soul is behind every action and therefore can receive sanctifying grace through an action.

As far as citation goes, I'd read up on the soul from newadvent. Also, some of what we're talking about are philosophical principles that were widely accepted, so they never received an official "this is what the church believes". People learned about them when they learned about the basics of theology.

Edited September 7, 2007 by The Joey-O

[N/A Gone]

You have a much more broad defination of Holistic Medicine. In that case, as we have said before there are good and bad parts. Some of the good has been done for years without the hippy title. I was speaking almost exclusively about some of the bad eastern mystic aspects.

now, as for some issues.


[quote]The phrase "Or their eyes just dont work" is exactly what I meant. Again, you didn't understand what I was saying at all. The soul is in no way defficient in a blind person. The soul is not able to express sight, because the "eyes just dont work".[/quote]

I understood. I just dont buy it. To say "the soul cant" is to say the problem is with the soul. It is defficient. Now, what makes a soul deffificent? We can have a sanctification talk here. But I dont think the 2 are related. sometimes the eyes just dont work. The machine is broken, nothing wrong with the driver. It isnt a matter of "the soul able to express sight" because sight is a physical trait performed by the eyes. Which apparently are broken.


[quote]Perhaps you take issue with the concept of the soul being expressed through the body.[/quote]

no, thats not it. The body is a tool, it is a part of the "whole" of us, but it is broken, it sometimes smells of elderberries and we deal with it. Just as there are ways to make our soul healthy and functional there are ways to make our body healthy and functional. But sometimes you break something. Has nothing to do with the soul, rather just the fact you tripped.


[quote]The word "expression" is used to show the one way relationship here. The soul cannot be affected by material things, since it is immaterial. However, it affects the material.[/quote]

Pron is a material thing that can affect the soul. There are many things "of the flesh" the affect the soul.

[quote]The whole body and every activity "begins" in the soul, as the soul is the foundation for the person.[/quote]

careful...if soul is foundation what is body? Extra/not needed?

[quote]When a person walks, it is an expression of the soul, just as prayer is.[/quote]
Perhaps. But in your analogy I assume will/mental is the same as soul...right?(just answer the question, dont debate 2 or 3 we did that before and it was annoying) I would say there are actions that affect the soul in a postive (prayer) or negative (lust/pron) but you could also have morally neutral actions. Such as walking.

[quote]Certain actions have consequence spiritually (and therefore on the soul), not because the material affects it. Rather, because the soul is behind every action and therefore can receive sanctifying grace through an action.[/quote]

This is kind of what I said above. I agree. The problem is how does this relate to your busted eye? Sanctification does not reflect blindness, damnation does not reflect blindness.

The reason holistic medicine works is due to the way your body releases chemicals. There is a direct connection with endorphins and attitude. Your body will give more juice if you think the juice does something for you. Now, if you think this because your doctor is encouraging you to do physical therapy, or if you pray to a cow, or if you pray to St. (do we have a midget parapalegic saint? cause that would be cool) the fact is you have found a way to convince your mind that your body can heal.

Now, there is room for prayer in the way that the divine can intervere with healing, but thats opaque theodicy, and not something I think you want to get into.

Edited September 7, 2007 by Revprodeji