The Types Of Habits For Various Communities

[Marieteresa]

I was thinking about this for a few days and was wondering what other discerners think about this. From my experience although it might be somewhat limited....I have noticed a progression from wearing the habit to modified habit to wearing none at all to be a major determining factor to whether the community is liberal, conservative or traditional. I know that it isn't always true but after looking at so many communities it has turned out to be true most of the time with some oddities. Just wondering what other discerners opinions are.

Edited August 31, 2007 by Marieteresa

[shortnun]

[quote name='Marieteresa' post='1374743' date='Aug 31 2007, 09:26 AM']I was thinking about this for a few days and was wondering what other discerners think about this. From my experience although it might be somewhat limited....I have noticed a progression from wearing the habit to modified habit to wearing none at all. Perhaps it is a progression of ideals that lead to the changes in various communities. Anyway, I was wondering can you really tell if a community is liberal or conservative based on whether they wear a full or modified habit?[/quote]
The way you've stated the question in the poll and what you have in the above post sounds like two different questions to me. In the poll, it seems to be that the wearing of a habit [i]makes [/i]a community "liberal", "conservative", etc. However, in your initial post, I read it that the community itself evolves toward the "liberal" or "conservative" end of the spectrum and [i]then [/i]the style of the habit changes.

Anyway, I have opinions to both of those questions, but I didn't answer the poll.

[HeavenlyCalling]

I said yes, but there are certainly excpetions to that rule. I would not look into an order just because they had a 'traditional' habit. In my expirance, the ones that have a habit are more the type I would join because of the way the live their life. This is only for me, however, they fit what I look for in a community, for someone else it would be different. Someone might be attracted by the types of nuns who DONT wear a habit, for whatever reason, and that is fine.

I just want to make the point that I dont think someone is 'less' a nun if she doesn't wear one or 'more' of one is she does. Both are brides of Christ.

[shortnun]

[quote name='shortnun' post='1374746' date='Aug 31 2007, 09:38 AM']Anyway, I have opinions to both of those questions, but I didn't answer the poll. [/quote]
I saw the changes you made. I answered "no", "no", and "unsure." I would add that if the second question had been "If a community [i]does [/i]wear a habit, do you consider them conservative?" I would have answered "no."

[Marieteresa]

[quote name='shortnun' post='1374785' date='Aug 31 2007, 10:40 AM']I saw the changes you made. I answered "no", "no", and "unsure." I would add that if the second question had been "If a community [i]does [/i]wear a habit, do you consider them conservative?" I would have answered "no."[/quote]

Just wondering what is the basis for your answers? Iam not hear to debate but just trying to understand. Thanks

Also for those who said no to the last question can you find an example of a community with a modified habit or no habit that has or is seeking to have TLM.

Edited August 31, 2007 by Marieteresa

[shortnun]

[quote name='Marieteresa' post='1374797' date='Aug 31 2007, 10:51 AM']Just wondering what is the basis for your answers? Iam not hear to debate but just trying to understand. Thanks
[quote name='shortnun' post='1374785' date='Aug 31 2007, 10:40 AM']
I saw the changes you made. I answered "no", "no", and "unsure." I would add that if the second question had been "If a community [i]does [/i]wear a habit, do you consider them conservative?" I would have answered "no."[/quote]
[/quote]
[b]Do you think that the type of habit a community wears determines if they are Traditional, Conservative or liberal?[/b]
MY ANSWER= NO First of all, I don't think it's appropriate to use general, sweeping words like "traditional", "conservative" or "liberal" when speaking of religious communities. I try not to use them at all. Such a plurality of meaning exists behind each word! And, if you refer to my initial post for how I understand this question to be asked, then I don't think that what I (or individuals in a community) directly effects my religious/political/etc beliefs one way or another. Might they be connected? I'll give you that much. But clothes are not the sole determinant of an individual or group ideology.

[b]If a community doesn't wear a habit do you consider them liberal?[/b]
MY ANSWER= NO I said above that I would also answer "no" if the question had been "If a community wears a habit do you consider them traditional or conservative?" And I think my response to the first question applies here as well. I think about the historical meaning of habits--how they came to be, why communities have worn them, etc. It's been mentioned before that some communities (such as the Society Devoted to the Sacred Heart) couldn't wear identifiable clothing for fear of persecution. If I sat in a garage, that doesn't make me a car. (If I do or do not wear a habit it doesn't make me X or Y.) What makes a car a car is an engine (a core of identity and being), the way it drives (the way a religious lives in reference to the Gospel), etc. Forgive the analogy, as it doesn't translate exactly, but I do hope it helps my point.

[b]Is there a connection between communities wearing the full habit and those communities desiring TLM (traditional Latin Mass)?[/b]
MY ANSWER= UNSURE It's a more complex question that just trying to connect the dots b/c TLM and the habit. Thus, my answer.

[Marieteresa]

I know you don't like my use of traditional, conservative or liberal but what other words would you use to classify communities? I know that classifications for communities probably shouldn't exist but they do and most of the discerners today probably classify communities.

[Totus Tuus]

I voted yes before the poll was updated. I would not enter a religious community without a habit (because, not meaning to start a debate again, that is against "the rules"). I am with most of you on the issue that traditional habits do not automatically denote that a community is in line with Rome, because you've also got those who go to the extreme right in overriding the Holy Father concerning Tradition (obviously I'm referring to schismatic traditionalists).

[shortnun]

[quote name='Marieteresa' post='1374838' date='Aug 31 2007, 11:48 AM']I know you don't like my use of traditional, conservative or liberal but what other words would you use to classify communities? I know that classifications for communities probably shouldn't exist but they do and most of the discerners today probably classify communities.[/quote]
Sometimes I just love the English language for all its words! I would use words such as these to describe communities:
[u]
Positive:[/u] active (referring to their living, not active vs. contemplative), vibrant, dynamic, youthful (in terms of outlook, not necessarily avg age), peaceful, hopeful, faithful, faith-filled, open-minded yet convicted, etc.

[u]Negative:[/u] static, negative, pessimistic, sedevacantist, critical, antagonistic, unchanging, narrow-minded, etc.

Hope that paints a better picture of where I stand.

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[b]Do you think that the type of habit a community wears determines if they are Traditional, Conservative or liberal?[/b]

No. The type of habit says a lot about a community, but it doesn't necessarily talk much about their orthodoxy and commitment to the Faith. I know some Little Sisters of Jesus, who wear a very simple habit - long dark skirt, blue chequered blouse, and a large wooden cross with a heart engraved in the centre. They cut their hair short but have no veil. It is a part of their charism to assume the dress of the common people, and consequently the sisters in different countries have varying habits. At one time there were Gypsy sisters, living and travelling with the Roma, and they covered their hair in the Romany style and adopted identical long, wide peasant skirts. During the war years there were sisters working in the factories of France, and they adapted their habits to match the workers' clothes. Solidarity with the less fortunate is part of their mission, and this affects the way they dress. I respect them for this, as I have a sneaking suspicion that it is possible to get vain over a full habit - St Teresa of Avila observed the same thing when she initiated her Carmelite reforms. For me, the dress of the Little Sisters of Jesus is more about humility than liberal views. Just because a habit isn't 'obvious' doesn't mean that it's without significance for those who wear it - and those who see it on a day-to-day basis.

[b]If a community doesn't wear a habit do you consider them liberal?[/b]

No. That would depend more on their [i]reasons[/i] for not wearing a habit. I try not to make judgements based on outward appearance.

Regarding the TLM question, I voted 'unsure'. I think there might be a correlation, as people who are traditional in liturgy seem more likely to be traditional in other matters.

[Veritas]

+

I haven't answered this question, because "liberal" and "conservative" are political terms. Their use within the religious context is a usurpation. Catholics are not "liberal" or "conservative" as such. They are either faithful or not faithful. Neither "conservatism" nor "liberalism" adequately represents the Catholic faith. Also, since pm is a worldwide site, it's important to note that these political terms mean completely different things in Europe and the US, e.g.

[Thomist-in-Training]

I don't have extensive familiarity with communities that wear the full habit but would say: Traditional (I think Marieteresa means TLM) communities tend to always have full habit, some conservative communities have full habit and some have modified, and to me "liberal" and "no habit" are automatically identified. I can see the flames coming so let me say that I do mean "[i]automatic[/i]," that is, as a matter of instinct, a knee-jerk reaction. (The Little Sisters described above sound great) There could be some communities that don't have habits but have kept up full orthodoxy elsewhere... Communities founded during the French Revolution etc. are another story again, I don't really have enough contact with them to say, though something inside me wonders why they didn't get them afterwards.
<ramble>
Anyhow I found myself having a related conversation with a young woman in line for a Papal Mass in St Peter's square, who was clad in pants, blouse and neat brown-and-white sweater vest and short hair, and just generally talking about religious since there were several around. I had told the story of St Francis who took his friars for a walk through the town "to preach." They walked from one end of town to the other and back towards the friary. "But Brother Francis, when are we going to preach?" He motioned at their habits "We just did." The young woman mentioned that she was studying for the Salesians (something like that; both of us were speaking Italian, second language) and I said "Oh that's nice, when do you enter?" "I have been professed for five years." "Ohhh...."
I guess in Italy they have habits but not South America where she was from.
So that was sort of awkward since I had already mentioned what I thought of habits... "It's different in South America though," she explained. It's possible, I don't know, but you'd think habits would still be nice...
</ramble>

[Marieteresa]

[quote name='Thomist-in-Training' post='1375350' date='Aug 31 2007, 09:58 PM']I don't have extensive familiarity with communities that wear the full habit but would say: Traditional (I think Marieteresa means TLM) communities tend to always have full habit, some conservative communities have full habit and some have modified, and to me "liberal" and "no habit" are automatically identified. I can see the flames coming so let me say that I do mean "[i]automatic[/i]," that is, as a matter of instinct, a knee-jerk reaction. (The Little Sisters described above sound great) There could be some communities that don't have habits but have kept up full orthodoxy elsewhere... Communities founded during the French Revolution etc. are another story again, I don't really have enough contact with them to say, though something inside me wonders why they didn't get them afterwards.
<ramble>
Anyhow I found myself having a related conversation with a young woman in line for a Papal Mass in St Peter's square, who was clad in pants, blouse and neat brown-and-white sweater vest and short hair, and just generally talking about religious since there were several around. I had told the story of St Francis who took his friars for a walk through the town "to preach." They walked from one end of town to the other and back towards the friary. "But Brother Francis, when are we going to preach?" He motioned at their habits "We just did." The young woman mentioned that she was studying for the Salesians (something like that; both of us were speaking Italian, second language) and I said "Oh that's nice, when do you enter?" "I have been professed for five years." "Ohhh...."
I guess in Italy they have habits but not South America where she was from.
So that was sort of awkward since I had already mentioned what I thought of habits... "It's different in South America though," she explained. It's possible, I don't know, but you'd think habits would still be nice...
</ramble>[/quote]



Interesting perhaps it depends on which South American country your in...I know of two wonderful sisters who are ex-religious. They both left a cloistered poor clare community after the community opted not to wear a habit along with other changes. They were from Columbia....I think.

I was seriously wondering if anyone knows of any community that wears no habit or a modified habit that has TLM (traditional Latin Mass) or is desiring it. Please post the link...Thanks

Edited September 1, 2007 by Marieteresa

[Stacey]

I answered yes to the traditionalists wearing habit because i think there is an aspect of tradition in it. The full habit is not a modern type of dress - it harks back to medieval times and before and it is worn purely as a sign of witness. The habit sets us apart, we don't blend in,we are saying our values are other than the present consumer society we live in. But it doesn't have to mean the community is old fashioned or uses outdated or unhelpful practices in it's life. The life itself in a community that wears a full and ancient habit can be very open,honest and not at all repressive. I don't think all of these communities want the TLM brought back - that's a different issue - though some may. I do think communities without habit can be very liberal - the women who join them ( at least those i know ) don't want people to know they are sisters though they are open if asked. A wonderful sister i know was horrified at the idea of wearing habit and deliberately only looked at orders that didn't. I am a postulant in a very old community which wears a slightly modifed form ( wimples instead of giumpes) of the old habit. We are enclosed but 'open' enough to have free use of our computers as it is important to keep contact with those we physically leave. Of course this also put's an onus of responsibility on us - when and how to use them. In our congregation 'liberty of spirit' is very important - but we still follow the Rule and act in certain ways. I think some sisters not wearing habit can be more traditional than others. There really are no absolutes.

[ruso]

Although it has been leaving my consecrated lay life as for 13 years and I am not in discinment i like me my opinion.
The type of habit that each community uses does not determine if they are liberal or conservative, but this already says much.
And to third of the mass in Latin I can say clearly that NO, a only exemple, my favorite congregation, they don't changes in the habit in 130 years and are only "traditionals" no "traditionalist"

[url="http://www.hermanitas.es/noticias/profesionvalencia.jpg"]http://www.hermanitas.es/noticias/profesionvalencia.jpg[/url]

Edited September 2, 2007 by ruso