Yhwh The Mother/wisdom With God From Beginning!

[tate4242]

I got this amazing list today of every verse in the Quran/Koran that refers to
Jesus/Yahushua:

If you are like me you may suspect that this list may prove highly useful in the future.
I responded to this list by getting into a rather technological explanation for various
New Testament and Jewish Bible concepts that have troubled theologians for
centuries. I would like to give you my entire response below and get your feedback/
comments on this idea. Personally....I believe that at least having an open mind to the
possibility that the Holy Spirit/Ruach ha Kodesh might perhaps be none other than
YHWH the Mother/Wisdom... who was with YHWH/God from the beginning...could set up
the theological/intellectual foundation for a Grand Unification Theory for
THEOLOGY!!!

Which in my opinion has the long term potential to greatly increase tolerance/understanding
between Catholics, Jews, Moslems, Protestants and rest assured every body else on this earth
will breathe a sigh of relief if we all seem to be getting along better!!!

[quote]PROPHET JESUS (PBUH) IN QURAN
2-87 5-73 19-21 6-85 3-45
2-136 5-75 19-35 3-55 3-49
2-253 19-19 43-64 4-171 3-59
5-72 19-20 4-157 5-116 5-17
2-87 We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of Messengers. We gave Jesus, the Son of Mary clear signs and strengthened Him with the Holy Spirit.
2-136 Say Ye "We believe in God and the revelation given to us, to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, to the tribes, to Moses, Jesus and to all prophets from their Lord." We make no difference between them, and we bow to Allah as a Muslim.
2-253 To Jesus, the son of Mary, we gave clear signs and strengthen Him with the Holy Spirit.
5-72 They do blasphemy on those who say, "God is Christ, the son of Mary". Christ said, "O children of Israel worship God my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins God with other gods will not go to heaven, the hell fire will be his resting place. These are the wrongdoers.
5-73 They do blasphemy on those who say, "Allah is one of three in a Trinity", for there is no God but one God.
5-75 Christ, the son of Mary, was no more than a messenger like the messengers that passed away before Him. His mother was a woman of truth. God makes His signs clear to them, yet they are deluded away from the truth.
19-19 Then we sent her our Angel and he appeared before her as a man in all respects, she said, "I seek refuge from thee to God most gracious." He said, "Nay I am only a messenger from thy Lord to thee with the Gift of a Holy son."
19-20 She said, "How shall I have a son when no man has touched me and I am not unchaste?"
19-21 He said, "So it will be", thy Lord saith, "That is easy for me and we wish to appoint Him as a sign unto man and a mercy from us", and so it was decreed.
19-35 It is not fitting to God that He should beget a Son. Glory be to Him. When He determines a matter He only says to it "Be" and it is. (KON FA YAKOON).
43-64 Jesus said, "For Allah, He is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him".
4-157 They said in boast, "We killed Jesus Christ, son of Mary, the messenger of God." But they killed Him not, nor crucified Him, but so it was made to appear to them. Those who differ are full of doubts with no certain knowledge. Nay Allah raise him up unto Himself.[/quote]

My reply:
[quote]Hi Salina:

Thank you immensely for this list of verses from the Quran
that speak of Jesus/Yahushua.

If the God of Abraham is willing, I certainly plan to put this
list to good use in the future.

What would you say to my weird and strange theory that
Yahushua/Jesus may have been the son of Isaiah?

The Holy Spirit/Ruach ha Kodesh may well be none other
than YHWH the Mother/Wisdom who was with YHWH
from the beginning... who He virtually pulled out of His own
side much as a rib was taken from Eve...and the Holy
Spirit/YHWH the Mother is an extremely gifted doctor...who
is quite capable of freezing a sperm sample from Isaiah...
for roughly seven hundred years...then this sperm sample is
injected into Mary/Myriam at the time when the Holy Spirit
overshadows her?

Perhaps I am severly in error in this theory?! But it is a
legitimate theory based on Isaiah chapter 7:

[url="http://www.bluelett"]http://www.bluelett[/url] erbible.org/ kjv/Isa/Isa007. html#14

Oh...I have read that one of the major divisions of Islam
do believe that there is some truth to the basic concept of
YHWH being quite capable of sending back somebody like
Elijah as another individual.. .such as John the Baptist. If I
were to make a wild guess as to Isaiah may have been in
another time period...I would guess King David. After all...
King David stated that he would make himself more
contemptable than this...after he danced before the Eternal
in only a loin cloth....and YHWH asked Isaiah to walk naked
and barefoot for three years as a sign for Egypt that
King Nebuchadnezzar would conquer them.

Does YHWH love the nation of Egypt?

If He did not love Egyptians... why would He ask one of His
most powerful prophets to walk naked as a warning to them?

May the Eternal bless you and guard you my sister.
May the Eternal lift up His countenance upon you and be
gracious to you. May YHWH shine His face upon you and give
you Shalom/Peace.

Dennis Tate
p.s. you may find this should be of interest to virtually
every thinking person in every Middle Eastern nation:

[url="http://www.phatmass%20.com/phorum/%20index.php?%20showtopic=%2066816"]http://www.phatmass .com/phorum/ index.php? showtopic= 66816[/url][/quote]

So basically I am saying that my old mentor/teacher Mr. Garner Ted Armstrong was almost certainly
incorrect when he rediculed your Roman Catholic concept of a trinity. Personally...I only began to understand
the idea of a trinity myself when I was introduced to the idea of the Ruach ha Kodesh/Holy Spirit as
YHWH the Mother in The Aquarian Gospel of Jesus the Christ. Up until that time I actually thought of the
Holy Spirit almost as an IT...a force or power....like electricity or gravity.

My theory of Yahushua/Jesus being perhaps the offspring of Isaiah through a process somewhat like our
modern artificial insemination....may of course be entirely incorrect...but if our asking good questions and
being less dogmatic about our beliefs can tend to help us to be moreso at peace with each other...then
the annoying cognitive dissonance caused by strange ideas such as this may prove to be quite worthwhile
over the long term.

Incidentally...this theory would tend to support the idea that the Logos/WORD became Jesus/Yahushua
at his baptism by John when the Holy Spirit descended on him like a dove!

[tate4242]

... who He virtually pulled out of His own
side much as a rib was taken from Eve[quote][/quote]

Oops...Sorry!!!! I've been on night shifts for months now and my poor old brain is
obviously not taking to the transition so well!

That should have read that a rib was taken from Adam to produce Eve!

[Thy Geekdom Come]

I'm not certain that I quite understood what you were talking about, but if I understood correctly, my answer is this:

The faith does not change. We cannot become "less dogmatic" about it.

The Holy Trinity is one God in three divine Persons.

The Divine Word became incarnate at the conception of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

The Holy Spirit does not have a gender, because He is a Spirit.

God bless,

Micah

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote]The Holy Spirit/Ruach ha Kodesh may well be none other
than YHWH the Mother/Wisdom who was with YHWH
from the beginning... who He virtually pulled out of His own
side much as a rib was taken from Eve...and the Holy
Spirit/YHWH the Mother is an extremely gifted doctor...who
is quite capable of freezing a sperm sample from Isaiah...
for roughly seven hundred years...then this sperm sample is
injected into Mary/Myriam at the time when the Holy Spirit
overshadows her?[/quote]
Where do you get this idea of a rib taken from Eve? And what is the deal with the sperm sample theory? I don't understand what you're trying to get at with this.

To be honest all of your posts above make very little sense to me.

[Socrates]

[quote name='tate4242' post='1374241' date='Aug 30 2007, 02:08 PM']I got this amazing list today of every verse in the Quran/Koran that refers to
Jesus/Yahushua:

If you are like me you may suspect that this list may prove highly useful in the future.
I responded to this list by getting into a rather technological explanation for various
New Testament and Jewish Bible concepts that have troubled theologians for
centuries. I would like to give you my entire response below and get your feedback/
comments on this idea. Personally....I believe that at least having an open mind to the
possibility that the Holy Spirit/Ruach ha Kodesh might perhaps be none other than
YHWH the Mother/Wisdom... who was with YHWH/God from the beginning...could set up
the theological/intellectual foundation for a Grand Unification Theory for
THEOLOGY!!!

Which in my opinion has the long term potential to greatly increase tolerance/understanding
between Catholics, Jews, Moslems, Protestants and rest assured every body else on this earth
will breathe a sigh of relief if we all seem to be getting along better!!!
My reply:
So basically I am saying that my old mentor/teacher Mr. Garner Ted Armstrong was almost certainly
incorrect when he rediculed your Roman Catholic concept of a trinity. Personally...I only began to understand
the idea of a trinity myself when I was introduced to the idea of the Ruach ha Kodesh/Holy Spirit as
YHWH the Mother in The Aquarian Gospel of Jesus the Christ. Up until that time I actually thought of the
Holy Spirit almost as an IT...a force or power....like electricity or gravity.

My theory of Yahushua/Jesus being perhaps the offspring of Isaiah through a process somewhat like our
modern artificial insemination....may of course be entirely incorrect...but if our asking good questions and
being less dogmatic about our beliefs can tend to help us to be moreso at peace with each other...then
the annoying cognitive dissonance caused by strange ideas such as this may prove to be quite worthwhile
over the long term.

Incidentally...this theory would tend to support the idea that the Logos/WORD became Jesus/Yahushua
at his baptism by John when the Holy Spirit descended on him like a dove![/quote]
Pardon my bluntness, but those theories are a load of carp totally at odds with basic Christian belief as stated in the Apostle's Creed:
I believe in One God, the Father Almighty, Creator of Heaven and Earth
And in Jesus Christ, His Only Son Our Lord.
Who was Born of the Virgin Mary
Suffered under Pontius Pilate,
Was Crucified, died, and was buried.
He descended into Hell.
On the third day He rose again and ascended into Heaven.
From thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.
. . .

[quote]It is not fitting to God that He should beget a Son. Glory be to Him. When He determines a matter He only says to it "Be" and it is. (KON FA YAKOON).
43-64 Jesus said, "For Allah, He is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him".
4-157 They said in boast, "We killed Jesus Christ, son of Mary, the messenger of God." But they killed Him not, nor crucified Him, but so it was made to appear to them.[/quote]
Islam directly contradicts Catholic Christian belief.
The two cannot be reconciled - they cannot both be true.

Believing the truth is more important than "getting along."

And your "theory"would not reconcile Christians and Muslims. Both orthdox Christians and orthodox Muslims will reject it. Only a few New Age gnostics and conspiracy freaks would like it.

(And I find the notion of our Blessed Mother being "artificially inseminated" like a barnyard animal extremely offensive and sacrilegious.)

Edited August 31, 2007 by Socrates

[Budge]

[quote]2-253 To Jesus, the son of Mary, we gave clear signs and strengthen Him with the Holy Spirit.
5-72 [b]They do blasphemy on those who say, "God is Christ, the son of Mary".[/b] Christ said, "O children of Israel worship God my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins God with other gods will not go to heaven, the hell fire will be his resting place. These are the wrongdoers.
5-73 [b]They do blasphemy on those who say, "Allah is one of three in a Trinity", for there is no God but one God.[/b]
5-75 [b]Christ, the son of Mary, was no more than a messenger like the messengers that passed away before Him.[/b] His mother was a woman of truth. God makes His signs clear to them, yet they are deluded away from the truth.[/quote]

According to scriptural test, the Koran and the spirit that inspired it... is antichrist.
[b]

[font="Arial Black"]1 John 4:3
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world[/font].[/b]

and becuase the KORAN DIRECTLY DENIES JESUS CHRIST SEVERAL TIMES.

The Catholic Church in accepting Allah of Islam as being their "god" too
have condemned themselves as ANTICHIRST by scriptural precept.

I am sad to see someone here being led into New Age universalism per this posting.

[tate4242]

[quote name='Budge' post='1374759' date='Aug 31 2007, 08:56 AM']According to scriptural test, the Koran and the spirit that inspired it... is antichrist.
[b]

[font="Arial Black"]1 John 4:3
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world[/font].[/b]

and becuase the KORAN DIRECTLY DENIES JESUS CHRIST SEVERAL TIMES.

The Catholic Church in accepting Allah of Islam as being their "god" too
have condemned themselves as ANTICHIRST by scriptural precept.

I am sad to see someone here being led into New Age universalism per this posting.[/quote]

Shalom Budge:

I genuinely like your directness. You are correct I believe in universalism/universal salvation.
I strongly suspect that even the fallen angels will eventually be led back to YHWH/The Heavenly
Father.

Budge, a friend of mine who attended Ambassador College said that the eighth century edition of the Catholic Encyclopaedia was there at the library. My friend had a buddy who wrote and understood latin. For one of his term papers he translated an article on The Antichrist from this encyclopaedia.

He told my buddy that this article stated that in the latter days, Christ would come to the earth and things would be going fantastic. Then the anti-Christ would come to the earth, cast Christ into hell and proceed to teach pretty much everybody to observe the Jewish weekly Sabbath, their annual Sabbaths, eat more and more kosher and soon the veneration of Mary virtually ceases from the earth.

This is especially interesting because the Fatima prophecies contain a similar prophecy. They state that the veneration of Mary and traditional conservative Catholicism will only be preserved in Portugal.

Budge, if the evangelical concept of a rapture is somewhat correct, where do you think Jesus/Yahushua would love to take his new bride soon after their wedding ceremony?

To Puerta Viarta to sip margaritas?

To heaven to take intense harp playing lessons?

Personally I believe that since the Heavenly Father experiences joy....and demonstrates it before the angels over the repentance of even one sinner...then I believe that Jesus/Yahushua wants a bride somewhat like Xena who would love nothing more than to proceed directly to hell...break tons and zillions of chains and set millions of captives free...and that would be just for the warm up three and a half year honeymoon period!!!!!!!

Budge, is YHWH as intelligent as Dr. Milgram who came up with a fascinating experiment to study why people were overly obedient to authority?

You know the one! An actor played the role of an authority figure/psychologist. An actor played the role of a learner subject who was strapped into a device that resembled an electric chair. The actual subject being studied was called the teacher subject. He was told that he was studying the effectiveness of pain as an incentive to speed learning. The teacher subject could view the learner in another room. He had a dial that supposedly would deliver higher and higher levels of electric shock to the learner.

This test was done in the 1960's during the time of the Nuremburg War Crimes trials and roughly sixty percent of New Yorkers zapped the poor bloody learner subject with sufficient levels of electricity to kill them!!! We supposedly superior North Americans found out to our dismay that we are just as probable to be overly obedient to an authority figure as potential prison camp guards from any other tribal or ethnic origin!

Budge, did Joseph son of Jacob/Yacob propose a nasty situation regarding Benjamin and Simeon to test his brothers to see if they had made any spiritual/mental/emotional progress from the days that they had tossed him into a pit?

Do you think that there is any possibility that perhaps the New Testament contains a similar test?

I mean think about it...."many are called, few are chosen"...."broad is the way that leads to destruction and many there be who go in thereat, narrow is the way that leads to life and few there be who find it!" Since some people during their negative near death experiences viewed an environment of intense heat and thoroughly nasty worms that can go in and out of the human soul/spirit in this horrible place that they report as vastly worse than anything they had ever read about Auschwitz....then let's hope that indeed something better/more humane....ultimately awaits humanity after our deaths.

What if Christ really wants to go to hell and break chains and set captives free for a period of time right after he marries his bride...the individuals who actually received His Holy Spirit/Ruach ha Kodesh....whether or not it is a she or a he or an it!

[Budge]

[quote]I genuinely like your directness. You are correct I believe in universalism/universal salvation.[/quote]

This is not what Gods Word teaches.

By the way I am an EX-Unitarian Universalist. {as well as ex-Catholic}

I reject Universalism as a false gospel, that humans in their own wisdom have put their own understandings above that of God.

Why would Jesus Christ warn of hell if no one went there?

[quote]I strongly suspect that even the fallen angels will eventually be led back to YHWH/The Heavenly
Father.[/quote]

What of the Lake of Fire?
[quote]He told my buddy that this article stated that in the latter days, Christ would come to the earth and things would be going fantastic. Then the anti-Christ would come to the earth,[b] cast Christ into hell[/b] and proceed to teach pretty much everybody to observe the Jewish weekly Sabbath, their annual Sabbaths, eat more and more kosher and soon the veneration of Mary virtually ceases from the earth.

This is especially interesting because the Fatima prophecies contain a similar prophecy. They state that the veneration of Mary and traditional conservative Catholicism will only be preserved in Portugal.[/quote]

Cast "Christ" into hell?

Thats blasphemy!

By the way I see the Catholics here as primed and ready for the antichrist, neglectful of the fact that devils often appear as angels, supportive of the one world government and of universalism.....outraged when I tell them that other religions lead people to hell.

Dont you be too....

What do you think this is about?.
[b]
Rev 17:13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
[/b]

Remember youre talking to an EX-Universalist, I know what the Lucis Trust is, how the Masons are involved and that the true directors of Alice Bailey-{-huge Theosophist} were demons. The Tower of Babel is today, and all the world is joining together in a huge satanic kumbuyah fest, denying the reality of hell teaching many paths take one to heaven and worshiping false "christs".


[quote].then I believe that Jesus/Yahushua wants a bride somewhat like Xena who would love nothing more than to proceed directly to hell...break tons and zillions of chains and set millions of captives free...and that would be just for the warm up three and a half year honeymoon period!!!!!!![/quote]
[u]
You are allowing what YOU WANT to define and even make up theology to your own human reasoning and wisdom. [/u]Hey I relate to this, how many folks because universalists and this applied to ME, thinking HELL is too bad of a deal to exsist, but with prayer, study and with the Holy Spirit I know understand. You are making the mistake millions make instead of adhereing to Gods Word letting your own emotions and desires determine a "GOD" OF YOUR OWN MAKING!

As for BLIND OBEDIENCE...

I just read the secular book...[i]The Lucifer Effect..[/i].

Google it, I am very familiar with this test and others like it.

I believe Catholicism is one cult that definitely teaches Blind Obedience..and have posted on this fact several times. The more gung-ho the Catholic the more the slavery to man.

I believe in following God over man. Catholics here defend following man over and over, their Pope is to be followed no matter what. Even wicked Popes are to be submitted to on matters of "faith and morals".

I believe those closest to God, would be the ones able to reject evil men and their commands. A Christian is to test all things according to Gods Word. That includes standing up to evil men with their commands and tyranny, and the abuse of the weak. There was definitely a failure in this with the Catholc sex scandals.I believe the silence there alone in Catholic circles, acceptance and excuses has been beyond ABYSMAL.

By the way CONSENSUS THINKING, GROUP THINK and ONE MIND--see scripture above is a part in parcel of the INTERFAITH movement. Independent thinkers and those who stand up for truth and what is right, are iTS ENEMIES. This was prophesized too as Jesus himself preached there would be division in the world and the world would hate those who adhered to the gospel. Which side are you on?

If you think being a universalist is avant garde, bucking the trend and being a stand-out, I hate to tell you it is the thinking of almost the entire world outside the Bible Christian. Most of the Catholics here are defenders of the interfaith unviersalist movement with the exception of a few Trads.

You can be set free today, by trusting in Jesus Christ as your Savior and realizing He is the only way.

Heeding THESE WORDS...
[font="Arial Black"]
Jhn 10:1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.[/font]

Those who teach unviersalism or other religions lead to heaven, are going AGAINST THIS VERSE.

stop indulging in universalistic fantasties that have nothing to do with reality--I MYSELF HAD TO DO THE SAME and pay attention to what God has warned you of.

Edited September 1, 2007 by Budge

[tate4242]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1374603' date='Aug 30 2007, 10:27 PM']Pardon my bluntness, but those theories are a load of carp totally at odds with basic Christian belief as stated in the Apostle's Creed:
I believe in One God, the Father Almighty, Creator of Heaven and Earth
And in Jesus Christ, His Only Son Our Lord.
Who was Born of the Virgin Mary
Suffered under Pontius Pilate,
Was Crucified, died, and was buried.
He descended into Hell.
On the third day He rose again and ascended into Heaven.
From thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.
. . .
Islam directly contradicts Catholic Christian belief.
The two cannot be reconciled - they cannot both be true.

Believing the truth is more important than "getting along."

And your "theory"would not reconcile Christians and Muslims. Both orthdox Christians and orthodox Muslims will reject it. Only a few New Age gnostics and conspiracy freaks would like it.

(And I find the notion of our Blessed Mother being "artificially inseminated" like a barnyard animal extremely offensive and sacrilegious.)[/quote]

OK...good points....I do understand why you would be offended by this notion...but again please keep in mind what type of situation causes joy to be expressed before the holy angels...the repentance of even one sinner! (I assume that it is the Heavenly Father doing the expressions of joy....and I am reminded of evangelical meetings in which one or two people are especially lively in their worship/adoration!)

[quote]I believe in One God, the Father Almighty, Creator of Heaven and Earth
And in Jesus Christ, His Only Son Our Lord.
Who was Born of the Virgin Mary
Suffered under Pontius Pilate,
Was Crucified, died, and was buried.
He descended into Hell.
On the third day He rose again and ascended into Heaven.
From thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead."[/quote]

I also absolutely believe every word stated here!

[quote]Islam directly contradicts Catholic Christian belief.
The two cannot be reconciled - they cannot both be true.

Believing the truth is more important than "getting along."[/quote]

This is where you and I may differ. I strongly suspect that The Devil/The Adversary/
Satan...makes some effort to state truth...in a manner that causes humans to get into trouble...every time that he gives a lying prophecy.

For example...I suspect that fallen angels and/or hungry ghosts may well have been involved in the "ghost dance" prophecies that preceded the massacre at Wounded Knee. First nations seers were given visions of the dead native warriors being resurrected and the North American buffalo returning to the plains. I personally feel that the 'Ghost Dance" visions fit extremely well with Ezekiel 37...if we will combine it with Revelations chapter 20 which in my opinion expands the concept of the resurrection of dry bones to all nations...rather than merely to the twelve or thirteen tribes of Israel.

So perhaps all the Ghost Dance visions are actually going to be fulfilled...but the First Nations people assumed that they would be fulfilled within perhaps one to five or ten years...whereas the Apocalypse reveals that "the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years was finished."

So Socrates....I believe that it is actually almost difficult to make an absolutely stupid statement. If I said that "up is really down...and down is really up"...that would be relatively true if you don't get around to reading my reply for approximately twelve hours!

When Abba Father YHWH chooses and anoints Himself a king...He will honor and back up that king...even when the king is in error. We see a perfect example of this when King Saul put a curse on anybody who would taste food. YHWH set the curse in motion...even though uttering that curse under the circumstances was a demonically inspired error!

The Devil is a king...he had been given considerable authority....and a powerful case can be made that Abba Father YHWH is ultimately taking the lie that he uttered to our grandmoter Eve...and turning it into a prophecy....because through the process of falling into sin...repenting and turning to The Heavenly Father with our whole heart...and through accepting the blood of our Passover Lamb as atonement for our sins...then we humans are indeed having our eyes opened so that we can begin to become more like Jesus/Yahushua who loved righteousness and hated iniquity.

My entire point is that we humans lie because we fear something or other. Lying is always based on fear! "Whom did you fear that you lied" (Isaiah)

Being overly dogmatic on any subject where I should admit that I firmly believe this and this and this....is OK if I am non-dogmatic when a specific aspect of this question is beyond my own ability to be dogmatic!...My being too dogmatic may well present a genuine STUMBLING BLOCK to potential little ones who might be willing to follow Jesus/Yahushua if he were presented in a more accurate manner!!! Well frankly...my being overly dogmatic...as I often saw Mr. Herbert W. Armstrong and Mr. Garner Ted Armstrong do....is a form of setting a stumbling block in front of the little ones...who might well follow Jesus....if I his servant was not such an ignorant twit!

I believe dogmatism grows out of our innate understanding of "KISS- keep it simple stupid"...which is essential to making a sale in many cases. I prefer to tell the truth...even if it may cause me to lose the sale over the short term...because by telling the truth and attempting to rid any form of exaggeration out of my vocabulary...I believe that I can make more sales over the long term!

It is theoretically possible that Jesus/Yahushua was indeed the physical son of Isaiah...whether you or anybody else likes it or not.

[quote]Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.
For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.
...........
And I went unto the prophetess; and she conceived, and bare a son. Then said the LORD to me, Call his name Mahershalalhashbaz.[/quote]

I do believe that somehow Jesus/Yahushua became the Logos/Word...but I personally do know have sufficient information to determine if that occurred at his conception...at his birth or at his baptism where the Ruach ha Kodesh descended on him like a dove.

Budge...I am saying that Jesus/Yahushua came in the flesh indeed...and that he attained a certain level of consciousness and then was anointed with the personality of Moshiach. This process is elaborated on extensively in Chassidic Jewish writings...and ultimately there may be no contradition whatsoever between Judaism, Catholicism and perhaps even of Islam...if it was properly understood!

[tate4242]

[quote]I do believe that somehow Jesus/Yahushua became the Logos/Word...but I personally do know have sufficient information to determine if that occurred at his conception...at his birth or at his baptism where the Ruach ha Kodesh descended on him like a dove.[/quote]

Sorry....another typing error...that should read ....but I personally do not have sufficient information to determine if that occurred at his conception...at his birth or at his baptism where the Ruach ha Kodesh descended on him like a dove....

Why is this point at all important?

Because of the way that Chassidic and Orthodox Jewish scholars teach that the Mashiach/Moshiach/Messiah/Christ will be anointed:

[topic="0"]http://www.moshiach.com/discover/tutorials/the_personality_of_moshiach.php[/topic]

[quote]Any time is a potential time for the coming of Moshiach. This does not mean, however, that at the appropriate time he will suddenly emerge from Heaven to appear on earth.50 On the contrary: Moshiach is already on earth, a human being of great saintly status (a tzadik) appearing and existing in every generation. “In every generation is born a progeny of Judah fit to be Israel’s Moshiach!”

[size=3]On the particular day that marks the end of the galut, when Moshiach will redeem Israel, the unique pre-existing soul of Moshiach — ‘stored’ in Gan Eden from aforetimes — will descend and be bestowed upon that tzadik[/size].[/quote]

I strongly suspect that ultimately...there need be no contradiction whatsoever beween the Catholic understanding of how Jesus/Yahushua probably became the Logos/Word...and how Orthodox Jews believe that Moshiach will be anointed!

Oh...and this is interesting....and may futher elaboate on what Rav Shaul/Paul meant when he said that "all Israel shall be saved"....

[quote]As a faithful shepherd he already cares so much about his people that he volunteered to [b]suffer all kinds of agonies to assure that not a single Jew of all times will be lost[/b][/quote]

....now perhaps...you are beginning to understand why II Corinthians states that it is possible to hear information about spiritual matters...that is NOT LAWFUL TO BE UTTERED!!!! The question of universal salvation is a troublesome and dangerous question....and perhaps it was implied to Jeremiah that it would not/could not be understood until the latter days:

"in the latter days you will consider it perfectly"

[tate4242]

[quote name='Budge' post='1375545' date='Sep 1 2007, 10:04 AM']This is not what Gods Word teaches.

By the way I am an EX-Unitarian Universalist. {as well as ex-Catholic}

I reject Universalism as a false gospel, that humans in their own wisdom have put their own understandings above that of God.

Why would Jesus Christ warn of hell if no one went there?
What of the Lake of Fire?
Cast "Christ" into hell?

Thats blasphemy!

By the way I see the Catholics here as primed and ready for the antichrist, neglectful of the fact that devils often appear as angels, supportive of the one world government and of universalism.....outraged when I tell them that other religions lead people to hell.

Dont you be too....

What do you think this is about?.
[b]
Rev 17:13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
[/b]

Remember youre talking to an EX-Universalist, I know what the Lucis Trust is, how the Masons are involved and that the true directors of Alice Bailey-{-huge Theosophist} were demons. The Tower of Babel is today, and all the world is joining together in a huge satanic kumbuyah fest, denying the reality of hell teaching many paths take one to heaven and worshiping false "christs".
[u]
You are allowing what YOU WANT to define and even make up theology to your own human reasoning and wisdom. [/u]Hey I relate to this, how many folks because universalists and this applied to ME, thinking HELL is too bad of a deal to exsist, but with prayer, study and with the Holy Spirit I know understand. You are making the mistake millions make instead of adhereing to Gods Word letting your own emotions and desires determine a "GOD" OF YOUR OWN MAKING!

As for BLIND OBEDIENCE...

I just read the secular book...[i]The Lucifer Effect..[/i].

Google it, I am very familiar with this test and others like it.

I believe Catholicism is one cult that definitely teaches Blind Obedience..and have posted on this fact several times. The more gung-ho the Catholic the more the slavery to man.

I believe in following God over man. Catholics here defend following man over and over, their Pope is to be followed no matter what. Even wicked Popes are to be submitted to on matters of "faith and morals".

I believe those closest to God, would be the ones able to reject evil men and their commands. A Christian is to test all things according to Gods Word. That includes standing up to evil men with their commands and tyranny, and the abuse of the weak. There was definitely a failure in this with the Catholc sex scandals.I believe the silence there alone in Catholic circles, acceptance and excuses has been beyond ABYSMAL.

By the way CONSENSUS THINKING, GROUP THINK and ONE MIND--see scripture above is a part in parcel of the INTERFAITH movement. Independent thinkers and those who stand up for truth and what is right, are iTS ENEMIES. This was prophesized too as Jesus himself preached there would be division in the world and the world would hate those who adhered to the gospel. Which side are you on?

If you think being a universalist is avant garde, bucking the trend and being a stand-out, I hate to tell you it is the thinking of almost the entire world outside the Bible Christian. Most of the Catholics here are defenders of the interfaith unviersalist movement with the exception of a few Trads.

You can be set free today, by trusting in Jesus Christ as your Savior and realizing He is the only way.

Heeding THESE WORDS...
[font="Arial Black"]
Jhn 10:1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.[/font]

Those who teach unviersalism or other religions lead to heaven, are going AGAINST THIS VERSE.

stop indulging in universalistic fantasties that have nothing to do with reality--I MYSELF HAD TO DO THE SAME and pay attention to what God has warned you of.[/quote]

[quote]Why would Jesus Christ warn of hell if no one went there?
What of the Lake of Fire?
Cast "Christ" into hell?

Thats blasphemy![/quote]

Personally I have came to firmly believe in the accuracy of the negative near death experience material. I think that it basically fits with and elaborates on the truths hidden in the parable of Lazarus and the Rich man...and on some of the statements made of Nebuchadnezzar made in Isaiah 14.

You could be right that the concept of Christ being cast into hell may be blasphemy...but then again we know that something drastic must happen in the end of days that will lead to the pacification of the wrath of THE LORD/YHWH!

[post="0"]http://www.drbo.org/chapter/26048.htm[/post]

[quote]And Elias the prophet stood up, as a fire, and his word burnt like a torch.
................
Who art registered in the judgments of times [size=4]to appease the wrath of the Lord[/size], to reconcile the heart of the father to the son, and to restore the tribes of Jacob.[/quote]

Personally...I am somewhere on the list of possible candidates to even fulfill this role. Back in 1990 I asked the Heavenly Father if He had any use for somebody to play the role of a goat for Azazel for Him?

I was basing this question on Leviticus 16:10:
[quote]but the goat on which the lot fell for Aza'zel shall be presented alive before the LORD to make atonement over it, that it may be sent away into the wilderness to Aza'zel.[/quote]

My dad had died on January 1, 1990 and it was only about six months later when I started praying about strange things like this. My dad did not repent....I never once helped him or encouraged him to say the sinners prayer....his blood is on my hands anyway!

It was at this same time that I confronted the near death experience material and the negative NDE material. I had to rethink my entire view of what happened to the dead. By then I was pretty sure that Mr. Garner Ted Armstrong had been seriously in error in what he had taught about soul sleep. Now I had powerful evidence that a very real Auschwitz type environment existed in the higher space time dimensions.

In the New Testament a progression is shown...Jesus/Yahushua was crucified and killed as our Passover Lamb...Some time on Sunday He went to heaven as a type of a wave sheaf after his resurrection...that I personally suspect probably occurred on Sabbath late afternoon/early evening exactly seventy two hours after his body was placed in the tomb/heart of the earth. (The annual Sabbath, the First Day of Unleavened Bread was almost certainly on a Thursday that week...and Mashiach was cut off in the midst of the week...Wednesday! (Mr. Armstrong was not incorrect about everything that he taught!)

Anyway...fifty days after the resurrection/ascention to heaven of Jesus/Yahushua the Ruach ha Kodesh/Holy Spirit was poured out on the 120 who were assembled to observe this Jewish festival.

Since a progression in time is shown in these events I began to wonder if a latter day 'goat for Azazel" would somehow fit into a latter day Yom Kippur event...and therefore be of some use to Jesus/Yahushua in finishing off the war against Azazel and his armies. (At that time I thought that Azazel and Lucifer were probably the same fallen angel...sillly me...I had not yet read the Book of Enoch)!

Anyway....some pretty strange events happened after I made this unusual request....and I do have some evidence to strongly suggest that perhaps my offer was accepted in the courts of heaven....I became a modern goat for Azazel....and the stage is set to crank up some final measures that will ultimately lead to the wrath of THE LORD being pacified!

Previous to the death of Absolom at the hand of Joab...what event would have tended to pacify the wrath of King David?

I believe that somebody capturing Absolom alive and bringing him into the presence of King David would have helped. Absolom coming to a definite humility similar to that Jewish king who repented in the Babyloniah prison cell would have helped even moreso.

If Azazel King of the Watchers has been told about my strange offer...and if he ended up with a tear in his eyes and/or a lump in his throat because of my strange offer....then perhaps matters are a little closer to that time when the wrath of the LORD will be pacified!...and all of this trouble will make sense!

On the other hand take warning...because there will only be one last Elijah...whereas there will be many anti-Christs...some of these anti-Christs may be convinced that they are the last Elijah....so probability indicates that I am probably on the wrong side of these questions...maybe I am purely delusional....perhaps heavily demonically influenced....I know that certainly I have been in the past!

Budge..on August 8, 2000 I wrote to Maria Jose Intriago of Quito, Ecuador who I had met through ChristianMatchmaker.com. I had asked her to criticize my writings....I think this one:
Male/Female Mental Emotional Differences...which is on one of my yahoo groups. She printed off my e-mail and website....took it home and prayed....she was told that I was going to be her husband....she argued with Jesus/Yahushua who told her this because she could tell that I wasn't exactly Pentecostal....soon she was told to fast for me for four weeks...three days per week drinking only fruit juices...and Jesus/Yahushua woke her up each morning and inspired her to pray for me...After these four weeks she fasted seven days streight for me in a similar manner. For ten years my nerves had been pretty shot...When I took Matol I exhibited the symptoms of mania...the up side of the manic depressive cycle....after Maria Jose began praying for me I was given a level of peace of mind that I almost could not comprehend. I didn't know that this much peace of mind was possible.

There is a lot more to my story with Maria Jose...and as a Baptist you will identify with much of it....one time my wife was invited to a meeting of Baptist pastors from Quito...but Sonya wisely did not tell MJ that these Pastors were Baptist not Pentecostal!

[tate4242]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' post='1374539' date='Aug 30 2007, 09:27 PM']Where do you get this idea of a rib taken from Eve? And what is the deal with the sperm sample theory? I don't understand what you're trying to get at with this.

To be honest all of your posts above make very little sense to me. [/quote]

....actually this idea of a rib taken from Eve was a typing error....but to attempt to illustrate my point that it is rather difficult to make an absolutely stupid statement....each part of each human is to some degree symbolic of at least one member of the Church...the body of Christ....the people who have been given the Holy Spirit and who are attempting to follow the Messiah.

A rib of Eve....would be symbolic of a pillar type of Jew and/or Christian...Jesus/Yahushua stated that his followers who had a genuinely Philadelphian attitude...one of true brotherly love...would be pillars in the temple of God....

....I truly believe that Adam had one less rib after Eve had been formed. I strongly suspect that YHWH...the Creator...the God of Abraham could also be termed the Being Of Light who people meet when they have a near death experience:
[quote]For my angel is with you: [size=4]And I myself [/size]will demand an account of your souls.[/quote](Baruch 6:6)

I suspect strongly that YHWH has learned a tremendous amount over the last 10^1,000,000,000 aeons...maybe He actually figured out how to make the squirrel species for the first time?! Maybe at the beginning of that time period He may have existed in a purely higher space time dimensional environment with absolutely no fourth space time dimensional planets, suns or entities anywhere in the universe!

Job was told that the angels "shouted for joy" at the creation of the earth...implying that they were really impressed with the earth when it was formed...and this also implies that maybe nothing quite like the earth existed previous to when they saw the earth being created?!

I may be taking symbolism too far but I suspect that all things on the earth somehow are symbolic of things that exist in heaven...I suspect that YHWH taking a rib out of Adam may be similar to how He may perhaps have taken Wisdom...the Holy Spirit...out of His own highly energetic form....and formed her into a separate Person composed either of Super Force...or Super Energetic Matter or both....A Being like Him who exists in the truly fundamental basic tenth or eleventh space time dimensional continuum where electromagnetism, gravity, weak and strong nuclear force are all mathematically unified into one force or power...

I don't blame you one bit for finding my posts kind of confusing...."out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks"...and frankly I personally am rather boggled by the incredible earth that I can observe....and especially by the troubling questions that we Theologians must try to deal with!

[tate4242]

Thank you for wading through this thread up to this point. One of the interesting things to happen to me after my weird request was that one day while I was praying I distinctly heard a voice in my head say "Ask of me anything that you want. I will give it to you." Silly me...I thought that this was probably the Devil/Azazel...that the old principle of their being some honor even among thieves was kicking into gear...Maybe the Devil rather likes that me...a Messianic Gentile/Christian would ask that his guilt be dumped on my head much as all kinds of nasty substances might be dumped on a new member of a biker gang during one of their '70 style initiation ceremonies...

...so anyway...I thought for a bit...because I know that we can't really ask the Devil for anything...but it was nice of him to ask....So I replied something to the effect:
[quote]...back during the time of Job you were able to go up and appear in the presence of YHWH...The Creator...OK...so how about you go up as close to the Creator as you can still go...and tell him that Crazy Tate....needs wisdom...badly! (Somewhere in Isaiah it states that the final anti-Christ will conquer one nation after another...almost like a farmer picking eggs out of nests...yet the leaders of these nations don't peep or mutter or make any noise in protest)...so that I can play you a good game of chess!....Kindly ask the Eternal to give me more wisdom than Christ...so that I can figure this H$#*7 mess out....and play YOU a good game of chess!...metaphorically speaking....Yup....more wisdom than Christ while he was merely human....and incidentally I don't play a very good game of chess if I am dead!!!....[/quote]

...I said more than that but that is the gist of things...because back in 1990 I was one of the most phenomenally ignorant people....and I was only beginning to grasp how phenomenally stupid I really was!

....anyway....in 1995 my wife....over five years before she even meets me....has a really strange dreams/vision as she is waking up. She meets a fallen angel who says that his name is Azazel..........and he gives her his second name....He tells my wife that "I am going to take him away from you"...by him he meant MJ's ex husband who divorced her...and who could not resist the cheap alcohol or the many beautiful flowers of Quito, Ecuador.....I believe that Azazel...is now cooperating with ABBA Father YHWH at a much higher level than before my weird and unusual request....at least I think so anyway....If the Devil begins to like one....even one human...and will actually say a heartfelt prayer for them so that they can become a better adversary to him and to his son the anti-Christ...then indeed a new era is dawning....

As for my game of chess against The Devil and the spirit of Anti-Christ....you can read more on this Orthodox Jewish anti-Christian message board:
[topic="0"]http://p069.ezboard.com/fmessiahtruthfrm12.showMessage?topicID=357.topic[/topic]
[b]Egypt will be the third with Israel and Assyria.....[/b]...

Budge....do you suspect that the Eternal Being who formed heaven and earth and instilled human beings with a sense of humor....is devoid of a sense thereof?

[tate4242]

I want to leave you a link on where I first encountered the idea of the Holy Spirit being a woman.

[url="http://fatherhurley.com/aquarian-gospel/chapter162"]http://fatherhurley.com/aquarian-gospel/chapter162[/url]

[quote]4. And Jesus spoke again unto the eleven and said, Grieve not because I go away, for it is best that I should go away. If I go not the Comforter will not come to you.
5. [b]These things I speak while with you in the flesh, but when the Holy Breath shall come in power, lo, she will teach you more and more, and bring to your remembrance all the words that I have said to you.[/b]6. There are a multitude of things yet to be said; things that this age cannot receive, because it cannot comprehend.
7. [b]But, lo, I say, Before the great day of the Lord shall come, the Holy Breath will make all mysteries known–[/b]8. The mysteries of the soul, of life, of death, of immortality; the oneness of a man with every other man and with his God.
9. Then will the world be led to truth, and man will be the truth.
10. [b]When she has come, the Comforter, she will convince the world of sin, and of the truth of what I speak, and of the judgement of the just; and then the prince of carnal life will be cast out.[/b]11. And when the Comforter shall come I need not intercede for you; for you will stand approved, and God will know you then as he knows me.
12. The hour has come when you will weep; the wicked will rejoice, because I go away; but I will come again, and all your sorrows shall be turned to joy;[/quote]

Whether it is an inspired writing or not is another question but I personally was extremely impressed with the Aquarian Gospel because it portrayed a Jesus/Yahushua who thinks and speaks much like somebody who believed in the mysterious ideas on salvation that many Chassidic or Orthodox Jews teach.

[tate4242]

Here is a link showing the first instance where I ever saw the idea that the Holy Spirit was a woman...YHWH the Mother. This is also the first time that the idea of the Trinity began to make perfect sense to me.

This Aquarian Gospel of Jesus the Christ is certainly a brilliant writing...whether or not it is inspired is another question..but it is incredibly well written and portrays a Jesus/Yahushua who thinks much as Chassidic or Orthodox Jew might well think considering what I have read on their beliefs regarding what is actually happening on the earth at this time...in relation to eternity.

[url="http://fatherhurley.com/aquarian-gospel/chapter162"]http://fatherhurley.com/aquarian-gospel/chapter162[/url]
[quote]4. And Jesus spoke again unto the eleven and said, Grieve not because I go away, for it is best that I should go away. If I go not the Comforter will not come to you.
5. These things I speak while with you in the flesh, [b]but when the Holy Breath shall come in power, lo, she will teach you more and more, and bring to your remembrance all the words that I have said to you.[/b]
6. There are a multitude of things yet to be said; things that this age cannot receive, because it cannot comprehend.
7. But, lo, I say, Before the great day of the Lord shall come, the Holy Breath will make all mysteries known–
8. The mysteries of the soul, of life, of death, of immortality; the oneness of a man with every other man and with his God.
9. Then will the world be led to truth, and man will be the truth.
10. [b]When she has come, the Comforter, she will convince the world of sin, and of the truth of what I speak, and of the judgement of the just; and then the prince of carnal life will be cast out.[/b]11. And when the Comforter shall come I need not intercede for you; for you will stand approved, and God will know you then as he knows me.
12. The hour has come when you will weep; the wicked will rejoice, because I go away; but I will come again, and all your sorrows shall be turned to joy;[/quote]