Budge: Where In The Bible Are We Told Which Books Go In The Bible.

[Lord Philip]

[quote name='MichaelFilo' post='1375567' date='Sep 1 2007, 10:00 AM']Budge, I would ask that you disregard any accusations against you and instead focus on showing how you can positively identify which books belong in the Bible. I realize you said that through study of the bible the verses seem to fit together but I was hoping for something more concrete than a promise.[/quote]

Amen to this post.

Budge, as I have mentioned before, I have been searching for the non-Catholic answer to the question of an infallible canon and have never received a satisfactory answer. Let me echo MichaelFilo's suggestion that before addressing the comments of others, it would be most beneficial to all of us for you to build a positive case (that means it is devoid of things like "the canon existed before the Catholic Church" which simply evades the question and takes the argument into ecclesiology...lots of things existed before the Catholic Church; that does not make those things infallible) for an infallible canon.

What might be helpful (if you want to be able to address the question that will specifically speak to a Catholic mindset) is to put yourself and all of us in the shoes of early Christians, say in the second century. It is historically documented that different communities throughout the world accepted different books into their canons (I can provide evidence for you if you want). Speaking as if you are a second century Christian, build a case for us that should cause us to accept the 27 books (to us in the twenty-first century, the 27 [i]canonical[/i] books) as the inerant Word of God, and all other books as uninspired in the way in which Scripture is inspired.

I know I speak for many here when I say that I am genuinely interested in hearing your case unmarred by responses to comments.

Thank you and may God bless you, Budge.

Sincerely,

Philip Wilson

Edited September 4, 2007 by Lord Philip

[BG45]

II Peter1:20-21
[quote]We did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we had been eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received honor and glory from God the Father when that unique declaration came to him from the majestic glory, "This is my Son, my beloved, with whom I am well pleased." We ourselves heard this voice come from heaven while we were with him on the holy mountain. Moreover, we possess the prophetic message that is altogether reliable. You will do well to be attentive to it, as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. [u]Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God.[/u][/quote]

Since one of the sub-arguments that seem to be going on here is the validity of Scripture itself as interpreted by individuals, I thought this might help someone.

[Budge]

Thank you BG>
[quote]QUOTE(stbernardLT @ Sep 1 2007, 01:23 PM) *
Any historical primary sources from early church fathers or early Roman historians that would support the Protestant bible. Including the bible itself, if you yhink you can.
Apparently, she can't.[/quote]

Why would I look to them for scriptural truth? The Alexandrian deceivers? Roman historians? forget it.

The apostles warned of the early deceivers right in the book of ACts, the problem with the Catholic Church is the Catholic Church is based on their teachings....error from the very early beginning.

[BG45]

You're welcome Budge, although, the verse in itself is a double edged sword. I at least, can see where either side of this debate could use it as justification.

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote name='Budge' post='1377873' date='Sep 4 2007, 03:18 PM']Thank you BG>
Why would I look to them for scriptural truth? The Alexandrian deceivers? Roman historians? forget it.

The apostles warned of the early deceivers right in the book of ACts, the problem with the Catholic Church is the Catholic Church is based on their teachings....error from the very early beginning.[/quote]

Catholics believe in Gods' word and believe in his promises. We have faith in Jesus and his promise to be with his apostles, revealing his truth to them and through them, till the end of this age.....with[b] NO GAPS.[/b]

Matthew 28
16 The eleven 9 disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had ordered them.
17 When they saw him, they worshiped, but they doubted.
18 Then Jesus approached and said to them, "All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. [b] And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age." [/b]


Jesus did not leave us to wander, what so ever. His word stands and has been leaading his apostles throughout the ages, centuries into all truth, from the time Jesus uttered these words. Sure there were decievers in the church, but that does not stop the truth from PREVAILING throughout the centuries.

Is Budge stating that Jesus promise is false??? Is Budge stating that the truth has not been preserved through his apostles since Jesus uttered these words to his apostles.

Is stating that the Holy Spirit could not lead the apostles into all truth and remind them of everything he has taught them, until Budge came along??

Budge, Jesus tells us otherwise and we Catholics believe him, as in John [b]14 Jesus is discussing with his apostles, his departure from this world.[/b] Read them slowly and let them sink in.

John14

16
And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another [b]Advocate to be with you always,[/b]

[b]and that means always![/b]

17
the[b] Spirit of truth[/b], which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it. But you know it, because[b] it remains with you, and will be in you. [/b]

[b]Always![/b]



18
I will[b] not leave you [/b]orphans;[b] I will come to you.[/b]

His promise is not to leave them or forsake them.

19
In a little while the world will no longer see me, but you will see me,[b] because I live and you will live.[/b]

Jesus is stating that he will live in them.

20
On that day you will realize that I am in my Father and[b] you are in me and I in you. [/b]

and states this once again.

21
[b]Whoever has my commandments and observes them is the one who loves me. And whoever loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and reveal myself to him." [/b]

22
Judas, not the Iscariot, said to him, "Master, (then) what happened that you will reveal yourself to us and not to the world?"

23
[b]Jesus answered and said to him, "Whoever loves me will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our dwelling with him. [/b]

24
[b]Whoever does not love me does not keep my words; yet the word you hear is not mine but that of the Father who sent me. [/b]

25
"I have told you this while I am with you.

26
The Advocate, the holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name[b]--he will teach you everything and remind you of all that (I) told you. [/b]

Through apostolic succession, Jesus has always remained faithful and his church has preserved everything that Jesus has taught. The reformation lost apostolic succession and the promises of Jesus and has been wandering with every wind of doctrine, ever since, hence; every man is their own authority and the thousands of splits in the body of christ.

27
Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you. Not as the world gives do I give it to you. [b]Do not let your hearts be troubled or afraid. [/b]

Catholics who believe in Jesus' are not afraid, for Jesus promises to be with his apostles till the end of time.

Edited September 8, 2007 by "Kyrie eleison"

[Budge]

[quote]Catholics who believe in Jesus' are not afraid, for Jesus promises to be with his apostles till the end of time.

This post has been edited by "Kyrie eleison": To[/quote]

That promise is for all Christians, not just a bunch of miter wearing [mod]edit--attack on clergy[/mod] who make a claim to authority they do not hold.

Edited September 8, 2007 by homeschoolmom

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote name='BG45' post='1377989' date='Sep 4 2007, 04:57 PM']You're welcome Budge, although, the verse in itself is a double edged sword. I at least, can see where either side of this debate could use it as justification.[/quote]

BG,

Budge is claiming that we do not follow the words of God.

Catholics believe that Jesus has set a foundation on his apostles and promises to be with them till the end of time. Let me remind you of what Jesus stated in John 14

John 14
23
[b]Jesus answered and said to him, "Whoever loves me will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our dwelling with him. [/b]
24
[b]WHOEVER DOES NOT LOVE ME DOES NOT KEEP MY;YET THE WORD YOU HEAR IS "not" MINE BUT THAT OF THE FATHER WHO SENT ME." [/b]

[b]These 2 verses go hand in hand.[/b]

As Jesus is giving more authority to his apostles.
Luke 10:16
Whoever listens to [b]you[/b] listens to me. Whoever rejects [b]you[/b] rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me."

Since you are looking at both sides, what do these words of Jesus mean to you? Who is the [b]you [/b]that Jesus is referring to in Luke 10:16 and who do we [b]ULTIMATELY[/b] reject if we reject the [b]you[/b] in Luke 10:16

Edited September 8, 2007 by "Kyrie eleison"

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote name='Budge' post='1380902' date='Sep 8 2007, 11:17 AM']That promise is for all Christians, not just a bunch of miter wearing [mod]edit[/mod] who make a claim to authority they do not hold.[/quote]

Budge,

Jesus was [b]specifically[/b] speaking to his disciples.

Matthew 28
[b]16 "The eleven disciples" went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had ordered them. [/b]
17 When they saw him, they worshiped, but they doubted.
18 Then Jesus approached and said to them, "All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.[b] And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age." [/b]

Edited September 8, 2007 by homeschoolmom

["Kyrie eleison"]

And again Jesus is [b]specifically[/b] speaking to his disciples

Luke10
[b]1 After this the Lord APPOINTED seventy (-two) 2 others whom he sent ahead of him in pairs to every town and place he intended to visit. [/b]2
He said to them, "The harvest is abundant but the laborers are few; so ask the master of the harvest to send out laborers for his harvest.
3
Go on your way; behold, I am sending you like lambs among wolves.
4
3 Carry no money bag, no sack, no sandals; and greet no one along the way.
5
Into whatever house you enter, first say, 'Peace to this household.' 4
6
If a peaceful person 5 lives there, your peace will rest on him; but if not, it will return to you.
7
Stay in the same house and eat and drink what is offered to you, for the laborer deserves his payment. Do not move about from one house to another.
8
Whatever town you enter and they welcome you, eat what is set before you,
9
cure the sick in it and say to them, 'The kingdom of God is at hand for you.'
10
Whatever town you enter and they do not receive you, go out into the streets and say,
11
'The dust of your town that clings to our feet, even that we shake off against you.' Yet know this: the kingdom of God is at hand.
12
I tell you, it will be more tolerable for Sodom on that day than for that town.
13
6 "Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty deeds done in your midst had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would long ago have repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.
14
But it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment than for you.
15
7 And as for you, Capernaum, 'Will you be exalted to heaven? You will go down to the netherworld.'"
[b]16
Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me."
17
The seventy (-two) returned rejoicing, and said, "Lord, even the demons are subject to us because of your name." [/b]

["Kyrie eleison"]

John 14
1 2 "Do not let your hearts be troubled. You have faith in God; have faith also in me.
2
In my Father's house there are many dwelling places. If there were not, would I have told you that I am going to prepare a place for you?
3
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back again and take you to myself, so that where I am you also may be.
4
Where (I) am going you know the way." 4
5
[b]Thomas[/b] said to him, "Master, we do not know where you are going; how can we know the way?"
6
Jesus said to him, "I am the way and the truth 5 and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
7
If you know me, then you will also know my Father. 6 From now on you do know him and have seen him."
8
[b]Philip[/b] said to him, "Master, show us the Father, 7 and that will be enough for us."
9
[b]Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you for so long a time and you still do not know me, Philip? [/b]Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
10
Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on my own. The Father who dwells in me is doing his works.
11
Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else, believe because of the works themselves.
12
Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever believes in me will do the works that I do, and will do greater ones than these, because I am going to the Father.
13
And whatever you ask in my name, I will do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14
If you ask anything of me in my name, I will do it.
15
"If you love me, you will keep my commandments. 16
[b]And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate 8 to be with you always, [/b]17
the Spirit of truth, 9 which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it. But you know it, because it remains with you, and will be in you.
18
[b]I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you. 10[/b]
19
[b]In a little while the world will no longer see me, but you will see me, because I live and you will live. [/b]20
On that day you will realize that I am in my Father and you are in me and I in you.
21
Whoever has my commandments and observes them is the one who loves me. And whoever loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and reveal myself to him."
22
[b]Judas, not the Iscariot,[/b] 11 said to him, "Master, (then) what happened that you will reveal yourself to us and not to the world?"
[b]23
Jesus answered and said to him, "Whoever loves me will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our dwelling with him.
24
Whoever does not love me does not keep my words; yet the word you hear is not mine but that of the Father who sent me.
25 [/b] [b]"I have told you this while I am with you. [/b]
26
[b]The Advocate, the holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name--he will teach you everything and remind you of all that (I) told you.
27
Peace 12 I leave with you; my peace I give to you. Not as the world gives do I give it to you. Do not let your hearts be troubled or afraid. [/b]

Again, Budge, Jesus is speaking [b]specifically to his apostles [/b]and Catholics are not afraid of troubled.

The apostles have kept Jesus' words and Jesus has sent the [b]ADVOCATE [/b] to REMIND them of [b]EVERYTHING[/b] Jesus has [b]TAUGHT THEM.[/b]

Edited September 8, 2007 by "Kyrie eleison"

["Kyrie eleison"]

Budge,

Jesus set the [b]foundation[/b] and gave [b]authority[/b] to his [b]apostles[/b]. No other foundation can be laid.

1 Corinthians 3:11

For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Just as [b]Abraham[/b], who was [b]a father figure and a ROCK to Jesus' people[/b], so did Jesus appoint [b]Peter a father figure [/b]to lead his people, to tend and feed his flock, the ROCK.


Matthew 16: 13-19
13 And Jesus came into the region of Cesarea Philippi: and he asked his disciples: who do people say that the Son of man is?

14 But they said: Some John the Baptist, some Elias, and others Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

15 Jesus said to them: But who do you say I am?

16 Simon Peter answered and said: You are Christ, the Son of the living God.

[b]17 And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed are you, Simon son of Jona, because flesh and blood have not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.

18 And I say to you: That you are Peter; and upon this ROCK I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. [/b]

[b]19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.[/b]

In Matthew 7:24-27 Jesus says the following and which go hand in hand;

"Everyone then who hears[b] these words of mine [/b]and does them will be like [b]a wise man [/b]who built his house on the[b] ROCK[/b]. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that [b]HOUSE,[/b] but it did not fall, because it had been [b]FOUNDED on ROCK[/b].

vs. those who [b]DO NOT LISTEN[/b]


And everyone who hears these words of mine [b]and does not do them [/b]will be like a foolish man who built his [b]HOUSE [/b]on the [b]SAND.[/b] And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell,[b] and great was the fall of it."[/b]

The reformation has failed miserably, in that there are more splits in the body of christ as any Joe schmoe can get on their soap box and is their own final authority, regarding the interpretation of scripture.

Jesus is the architech and built his house on the [b]rock (Peter)[/b] and Jesus promises the gates of hell will not prevail against her.

Matthew 16

18 And I say to you: That you are[b] PETER[/b]; and upon this [b]ROCK[/b] I will build my church, and the gates of hell[b] shall not [/b]prevail against it.

The foundation has been laid and no one can move the [b]ROCK.[/b]

Edited September 8, 2007 by "Kyrie eleison"

[fides quarens intellectum]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' post='1374836' date='Aug 31 2007, 10:43 AM']If the King James Bible was good enough for Jesus its good enough for me. Amen.[/quote]

[MichaelFilo]

Unfortunatly others continue to derail Budge from addressing the Canon. It is very hard for anyone to address accusations and answer a question. I wish this would stay on topic and invite Budge to come back and give it another go.

[Lord Philip]

[quote name='Budge' post='1377873' date='Sep 4 2007, 01:18 PM']Thank you BG>
Why would I look to them for scriptural truth? The Alexandrian deceivers? Roman historians? forget it.

The apostles warned of the early deceivers right in the book of ACts, the problem with the Catholic Church is the Catholic Church is based on their teachings....error from the very early beginning.[/quote]

Budge,

You are not answering the question. Please address the question at hand. I am tired of restating it.

On what basis do you tell me that the New Testament Canon of Scripture is an inspired list of books? On Protestant/non-Catholic grounds please tell me why I should accept the book of Hebrews or James or Jude or Revelation. ANSWER THE QUESTION.

(Interestingly, in every single debate I have had with a non-Catholic on the canon of Scripture, I have had to repeat at least 5 or 6 times the admonition: "ANSWER THE QUESTION, PLEASE!" Dancing, dodging, changing the subject and all such nonsense is very tiresome)

Philip