Harassment Of Homosexuals In The Military

[Anomaly]

[quote name='infinitelord1' post='1386960' date='Sep 17 2007, 09:36 AM']Well I admit they should have taken action when they had the opportunity. And yes im sure that it would be hard to shower next to a gay dude.

I think the reason why they didnt take action was because of the nature in which I revealed this information. The interpretation of the "don't ask don't tell" policy is controversial. Under the Homosexual conduct portion of the policy....it says that the soldier cannot show a propensity to engage in homosexual acts. The controversy lies within the interpretation of "propensity". Does that mean that because the soldier has SSA that if that person is to have sex it would be with someone of the same sex? Or does it mean that the person can express SSA but at the same time reveal that he/she does not intend on acting upon it?It may be intrepreted that way since the very next sentence says..."the soldier can present evidence that he/she does not engage in homosexual acts and does not have a propensity or intent to do so".A commander can subject the person to punishment under the UCMJ in either case.

In my case I revealed that I had SSA, but I also revealed that I did not intend on acting upon those feelings.

I am glad that you did not try to rationalize why you think gays shouldn't be in the military. You did not make a moral issue out of it....rather you simply stated that it just makes you feel uncomfortable. I think it is as simple as that, and thats why I think most people don't want gays in the military. I think they use morallity to try to justify keeping them out.

My opinion is that morallity is not a reason to keep gays out of the military since we are all sinners. It is hypocritical to keep someone out because of a sin they commit since we are all sinners. Some people dont even engage in the sin.....why keep them out? Because it makes people feel uncomfortable showering or living with them? This is the only reason that I can find.[/quote]Frankly, your self-righteous and selfish attitude is tiring. Morality IS a reason to keep gays out of the military. Military Conduct Rules already have Morals regulations. You continually rationalize and justify your behavior with technicalities and selfishness that defy reasonableness.
You are doing little not nothing to 'overcome' your SSA, because you keep bringing it up and making a big issue of it when it doesn't have to be. Just because Military enforcement of it's rules are imperfect, is not justification to claim it can't enforce any rules (because we're all sinners).
With your attitude, you should be kicked out of the military because you do little to nothing to comply and be part of the unit. Military is not normal or regualar society. People have guns and are expected to use them in tense and hostile situation where people who hate you are expected to use them against you. It's not a liberal or conservative thing. It's not harrassment. It's not picking on poor little you. It's your immature self asorbtion that refuses to accept the responsibilities and consequences of your own choices and actions. It's your childish and sophmoric attitude that believes others should meet a higher standard than you FIRST, THEN you'll comply with their regualations. Good luck with that.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1395448' date='Sep 30 2007, 09:21 AM']You are doing little not nothing to 'overcome' your SSA, because you keep bringing it up and making a big issue of it when it doesn't have to be. Just because Military enforcement of it's rules are imperfect, is not justification to claim it can't enforce any rules (because we're all sinners).[/quote]

IL,

I'd like to expand on anomaly's point here.

Now, you know I'm not one of those who makes light of harassment. At the same time, you talk about how you'd like to be married and have children some day. In all charity, maybe what you are going through is a wake-up call to get serious about that goal and get that part of your life in order. It will reap multiple benefits.

Who knows - maybe if your roommate sees you looking at the women on Ave Maria Singles they [i]may[/i] back off a bit to the point that life will be more bearable. Hey, even post the best picture of yourself in uniform (if it does not violate regulations) - some women are attracted to that! Maybe even some of the single ladies here on phatmass might swoon over you!

[Socrates]

[quote name='Paladin D' post='1395230' date='Sep 29 2007, 04:26 PM']The *homosexual lifestyle* is a mortal sin, like any other mortal sin. Implying that it is somehow the most evil out of all the sins is inaccurate.[/quote]
Don't know who "implied" that, but to clarify, homosexuality is regarded by the church as objectively the most serious of sexual sins next to bestiality.
(Rape can be worse though because in addition to being a sin against chastity, it is also a grave sin against justice.)

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1395448' date='Sep 30 2007, 09:21 AM']Frankly, your self-righteous and selfish attitude is tiring. Morality IS a reason to keep gays out of the military. Military Conduct Rules already have Morals regulations. You continually rationalize and justify your behavior with technicalities and selfishness that defy reasonableness.
You are doing little not nothing to 'overcome' your SSA, because you keep bringing it up and making a big issue of it when it doesn't have to be. Just because Military enforcement of it's rules are imperfect, is not justification to claim it can't enforce any rules (because we're all sinners).
With your attitude, you should be kicked out of the military because you do little to nothing to comply and be part of the unit. Military is not normal or regualar society. People have guns and are expected to use them in tense and hostile situation where people who hate you are expected to use them against you. It's not a liberal or conservative thing. It's not harrassment. It's not picking on poor little you. It's your immature self asorbtion that refuses to accept the responsibilities and consequences of your own choices and actions. It's your childish and sophmoric attitude that believes others should meet a higher standard than you FIRST, THEN you'll comply with their regualations. Good luck with that.[/quote]


Wow...i would like a second opinion on this one....you people really think im being selfish and rationalizing here?

I certainly dont see it that way.

[infinitelord1]

hey anomoly, what about people who dont live the homosexual lifestyle but experience SSA? In this case they are living their lives morally in the face of temptation. Sounds like you put them in the same box as active homosexuals.

While at my first duty station I never broke the Dont ask Dont tell policy....therefore I never deserved to be treated the way I was. I abided by the rules....they didnt...its as simple as that. Wanna make a moral issue out of straight people obeying the Dont ask Dont tell policy? Thats what im doing. Got any crappy comments now? I dont wanna hear them.

Edited October 1, 2007 by infinitelord1

[Anomaly]

You don't want to hear the truth.
You haven't answered repeated questions of what SSA activity you feel you are being prevented from doing.
It's been pointed out (again, repeatedly) that your mistreatment is the same as what hetero's may get if they don't go along with the typical 'horn-dog' mentality of most young men in today's society.
Really, your mistreatment had NOTHING to do with SSA until you made it known and made it an issue.
And your accusation: "hey anomoly, what about people who dont live the homosexual lifestyle but experience SSA? In this case they are living their lives morally in the face of temptation. Sounds like you put them in the same box as active homosexuals." is wrong, false, and just lashing out at me. I never said that, or even came close to intimating that.

We all get treated badly at times, and rarely 'deserve it'. Okay, you didn't 'deserve' how you were treated. Join the club. Your claims that it has to do with your 'SSA' is off-base and wrong, unless you aren't telling us the whole story.

So you got some 'fag' comments because you weren't going along with the 'horn-dog' attitude of the guys. Hello, lot's of us have said they've gotten the same comments and we don't have SSA. What makes you special, or makes those comments any more hurtful when directed towards you? People say mean things, so you want 'Teacher' to make the mean boys to stop picking on you? This isn't grammar school, you have to deal with it as an adult.

It's you that made it about SSA because it's YOU who broke the code and told others you have SSA. The 'fag' comments that were directed towards you had nothing to do with your SSA because it's the same comments said towards many guys who have morals that govern how they act and talk about women.

[Aloysius]

from personal experience: when one is struggling with this issue, they tend to become particularly sensitive to the common day to day gay joke (whether or not it is used directed at them). this is probably why Infinitelord reacted this way. sadly, it only serves to "out" him for real when he responds too sensitively to the daily fodder of 'fag' statements.

I remember one time I got really upset at a lot of my friends for continued jokes about homosexuals in general (wasn't even directed at me)... I was dealing with it so seriously, and to them it was a big joke ya know? I just had it in my mind that if they only knew the hell it puts people through, how could they laugh? ehh... looking back I know I was just in a really hyper sensitive emo-ish mood and am really glad I kept my indignation to myself.

[fides quarens intellectum]

[quote name='Maggie' post='1395293' date='Sep 29 2007, 07:35 PM']If you haven't noticed, the word "qwerty" gets turned into "qwerty" automatically by the phorum software. That's also how "carp" gets turned into carp. People aren't actually typing carp, they're typing the other semi-dirty word, and the software changes it. Just FYI.[/quote]

thanks for the explanation - i thought people were self-editing. i wish "fag" were changed by the software as well...

[Aloysius]

I was here at the fall of "queeer" to the fiddler. it was really quite a sad day in phorum history if I do say so myself, for it is a perfectly fine word in its proper context. it means odd, strange, pecuiliar.

and of course, what about those who like to smoke fags?

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1395926' date='Oct 1 2007, 08:26 AM']You don't want to hear the truth.
You haven't answered repeated questions of what SSA activity you feel you are being prevented from doing.
It's been pointed out (again, repeatedly) that your mistreatment is the same as what hetero's may get if they don't go along with the typical 'horn-dog' mentality of most young men in today's society.
Really, your mistreatment had NOTHING to do with SSA until you made it known and made it an issue.
And your accusation: "hey anomoly, what about people who dont live the homosexual lifestyle but experience SSA? In this case they are living their lives morally in the face of temptation. Sounds like you put them in the same box as active homosexuals." is wrong, false, and just lashing out at me. I never said that, or even came close to intimating that.

We all get treated badly at times, and rarely 'deserve it'. Okay, you didn't 'deserve' how you were treated. Join the club. Your claims that it has to do with your 'SSA' is off-base and wrong, unless you aren't telling us the whole story.

So you got some 'fag' comments because you weren't going along with the 'horn-dog' attitude of the guys. Hello, lot's of us have said they've gotten the same comments and we don't have SSA. What makes you special, or makes those comments any more hurtful when directed towards you? People say mean things, so you want 'Teacher' to make the mean boys to stop picking on you? This isn't grammar school, you have to deal with it as an adult.

It's you that made it about SSA because it's YOU who broke the code and told others you have SSA. The 'fag' comments that were directed towards you had nothing to do with your SSA because it's the same comments said towards many guys who have morals that govern how they act and talk about women.[/quote]

Look, I know that those comments were directed at me in the context that I described. It had everything to do with my SSA. Those people suspected me of my SSA, and thats why they said the things they did. I didnt make it into anything. You can blame me for giving it away or whatever....you cant blame me for the choices that other people made that resulted in me being mistreated.

I dont understand why you percieve me as thinking that I am special. I would encourage others to do the same thing I did. The reason why I chose this course of action was because of the degree at which it was happening. If it were just every so often or just a few people then i would be able to see why writing a Senator is childish or flat out overkill. My situation was out of control and way too many people (most importantly superiors) were involved. Because of how big it was....it said a lot about the army as a whole....and now that i do more research into the subject....I am finding that many of the things I was going through is experienced by many others. All the "conspiracy" that some of you have accused me of is actually a reality for many others. I think my case is a good case because it shows that there is a possiblity that high ranking individuals are giving orders to push out people with SSA. Thats what gave fuel to my case, and thats why I posted this thread in the manner that I did. Take out those officers and this would have been a different topic. It would have been more like "how should I handle my situation?" or "what should I do in this case". I can only tell you what happened, and show you how strongly I think the way I do.

You know I could have handled it a lot differently than I did....I chose not to file a complaint with the Army. I knew they would have been forced to inflict severe punishment on those people since they were in the spotlight of a supporting senator. I also knew that if I filed the complaint I would have been showing them that I was unwilling to work with them on the situation. I know that sounds crazy, I really dont believe that they would have worked with me if I used the army complaint channel. It would have been worse for me then because I would have put the SSA idea into peoples heads without outside sources knowing what was going on. But at the same time I am telling you that a lot of people allready suspected it. It would have gone nowhere. It was either put up with it, get out, or make a move that would force them into cooperation making it more livable for myself. Im just trying to survive. Try not to look at this any other way. I want to stay....I couldnt go on like that anymore. The important thing is right now things are better. Im just watching their nexts moves and evaluating to see if I need to take further action. I think they realize that if they start trying to corner me again then I will make bigger political moves. But at the same time I continue to watch every move they make.

Service Members Legal Defense Network encourages writing congress on the matter for many reasons. I did not know about this organization prior to filing my congressional....but when I read there website im glad i did because i found a lot of common things in there.