Harassment Of Homosexuals In The Military

[ironmonk]

[quote name='infinitelord1' post='1383938' date='Sep 12 2007, 12:12 AM']ok so i need to address things more...I agree. Its really not the alienation that bothers me. I can live with that.

I do agree that its hard for people to develop a bond with a suspected homosexual. I dont know if its really demoralizing for them or not. They may not like someone because they suspect such things, but there are people who dont like people (in general) in the military as well. But because of such a vast majority of people not liking homosexuals i can see where this would be a problem. But at the same time, maybe its them who should be called to "grow up" as well. Please dont take my case and apply it to all homosexuals in the military. You would be stereotyping then.

Maybe its on the battlefield that homosexuals can prove that they are worthy given that they were treated fairly all along.[/quote]

People who live the homosexual lifestyle are too immoral for the military because they practice an abomination. Many people in the military fornicate, but fornication is not an abomination.

This has nothing to do rather or not that they are "worthy" for battle. This has to do with accepting something disordered as ok and normal.

Why should people be forced to live with homosexuals?
Why should something that has been known as evil since the beginning of history, be ignored?

Practicing homosexuality is a direct attack on society and the family. Society is built on the family, there cannot be families with same sex relationships, there is no procreation. Homosexual acts are perverse. Some people can't help that they have perverse desires, but they can choose on how to act on them.


God Bless,
ironmonk

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1384043' date='Sep 12 2007, 06:59 AM']IL,
Again, I'm asking, what behavior(s) are you engaging in that is demonstrating that you are a homosexual or have SSA? What behavior do you want to engage in that is being prevented because of of 'harrassment'?[/quote]

I dont know why people think this about me. I dont talk about it...i dont act like a flambouyant gay guy. I dont know how to answer your second question.

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='ironmonk' post='1384618' date='Sep 12 2007, 10:07 PM']People who live the homosexual lifestyle are too immoral for the military because they practice an abomination. Many people in the military fornicate, but fornication is not an abomination.

This has nothing to do rather or not that they are "worthy" for battle. This has to do with accepting something disordered as ok and normal.

Why should people be forced to live with homosexuals?
Why should something that has been known as evil since the beginning of history, be ignored?

Practicing homosexuality is a direct attack on society and the family. Society is built on the family, there cannot be families with same sex relationships, there is no procreation. Homosexual acts are perverse. Some people can't help that they have perverse desires, but they can choose on how to act on them.
God Bless,
ironmonk[/quote]


Many people in the military commit adultery and also commit rape. Nobody really heres about that. A criminal investigator told me that there are people in my barracks that are raping Korean women!!!

I think you are overexagerating on things to make your stand on how gays shouldnt be in the military.

1. why should we hate people more for their sins (in this case homosexuals) than any other sinner? You can ramble on all you want about abomination this and fornication that....I can allready see that this little debate will go no where.

2. Nobody ever said that everyone should accept homosexuality as being ok or normal....that was not part of the debate.

3. the only thing i can see that you are providing that justifys your position is the living situation. There are things that roommates can do to have privacy....me and my old room mate used furniture to make a barrier in the room so that we had our own privacy.

4. I continue to ask....how should non-practicing homosexuals be treated? They are not engaging in sin. So should they be treated as if they are? I would think so long as they obey the "dont ask dont tell" policy that they should be treated fairly and be able to serve their country.

I notice you have a strong stance on homosexuals and how they "ATTACK" society and all that.....so let me ask you this.....given that not everybody gets married and has a family etc. should they be treated like homosexuals? Show me in the bible where it says that it is an issue of morality to have a family. Maybe we should start a new debate and call it...."Is it a Sin to not get married and not have a family". I think you need to find other ways to justify homosexuals being mistreated.....I dont agree with your logic.

Who was it that said they didnt join the army (yet they wanted to at one point) because homosexuals were in the army? Well I got something to say about that....its ashamed that you let something prevent you from serving your country.

[Justin86]

Something I would like to point out here. There is no "right" to serve your country. It is a privilege to wear the uniform of a United States Soldier, Sailor, Airmen, or Marine. You work to earn it. No one is required to give it to you.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='ironmonk' post='1384618' date='Sep 12 2007, 10:07 PM']People who live the homosexual lifestyle are too immoral for the military because they practice an abomination. Many people in the military fornicate, but fornication is not an abomination.[/quote]

HUH???

Extra-marital sex - no matter if it's with your own half of humanity or the opposite - is a mortal sin. Does someone say to themselves, "oh, well, I'm in hell, but at least it wasn't for an abomination"? How can something be less of a mortal sin? It all has the same penalty.

As someone once said, hell is hot no matter who you sleep with to get there.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='infinitelord1' post='1386445' date='Sep 16 2007, 03:17 AM']I dont know why people think this about me. I dont talk about it...i dont act like a flambouyant gay guy. I dont know how to answer your second question.[/quote]I'm trying to get my mind wrapped around the situation and why you think that it's special because you have SSA.

As was pointed out in other threads. The act of NOT behaving like an animal that is guided by hormones and desire to please their genitals, is perceived as 'odd', especially in an all-male, 18-21yo group. Your "harassment" seems to be no more then the grief any decent minded guy gets when he doesn't chime with the crowed when they're babbling on about 'doing' everygood looking woman they see. From your statement above, there is NOTHING you're doing that set's you apart as being gay or having SSA. The only thing is what you have done regarding the jibes, is complain that it's because of your SSA, when there is no way to know that without you telling them.

You've violated the Don't Ask, Don't Tell policy first because you told them. You weren't targeted or teased because you were 'gay', you were targeted and teased because you acted like you had morals and didn't treat women like empty sex-objects. Join the club.

You had stated it wasn't right that only 1 party had to obey the DA,DT policy. I disagree with you. Even though I think you broke it first, that doesn't mean what they've done is now okay, although, you share some of the blame and responsibility, so that opens you up for punishment as well as them.

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1386502' date='Sep 16 2007, 08:32 AM']I'm trying to get my mind wrapped around the situation and why you think that it's special because you have SSA.

As was pointed out in other threads. The act of NOT behaving like an animal that is guided by hormones and desire to please their genitals, is perceived as 'odd', especially in an all-male, 18-21yo group. Your "harassment" seems to be no more then the grief any decent minded guy gets when he doesn't chime with the crowed when they're babbling on about 'doing' everygood looking woman they see. From your statement above, there is NOTHING you're doing that set's you apart as being gay or having SSA. The only thing is what you have done regarding the jibes, is complain that it's because of your SSA, when there is no way to know that without you telling them.

You've violated the Don't Ask, Don't Tell policy first because you told them. You weren't targeted or teased because you were 'gay', you were targeted and teased because you acted like you had morals and didn't treat women like empty sex-objects. Join the club.

You had stated it wasn't right that only 1 party had to obey the DA,DT policy. I disagree with you. Even though I think you broke it first, that doesn't mean what they've done is now okay, although, you share some of the blame and responsibility, so that opens you up for punishment as well as them.[/quote]


The truth is I have broken the "don't ask don't tell" policy 2 times since I have been in the Army. The first time was in basic training....drill sergeants found a letter that I was writing to my counselor (a christian counselor who helps people seek freedom from homosexuality). They confronted me about it and told me that they found the letter and that they were aware of my situation. If I remember correctly...they seemed to give me hints to take a "failure to adapt" and get out...but dont quote me on that.

The second time was in AIT. I talked to a openly gay soldier about it. I told him that i experience SSA but that I believed that it can be overcome.

Those were the 2 times that I broke the policy. Yeah I know, it was a mistake. Spare me the criticism. This stuff is not supposed to leave a training environment but its certainly possible that it did.

I know they thought those things about me in the context in which I speak of. I just can't tell you why people think this about me...I can only offer possibilities.

Prior to me telling you this....I dont know why you would have thought that i broke it first. I have not broken it one time since I have been at my first duty station.

I dont think that I deserve any special treatment nor do I think I am special because I have SSA. What did I say that lead you to believe this?

[Anomaly]

So it seems that the fag comments are just immature males trying to be hurtful because you are not a 'hormone controlled' animalistic male. Then you're harrassment has nothing to do with SSA or being gay, they're just rude, innappropirate, hateful comments because you're 'diffferent' because you have morals, not because of SSA.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1386532' date='Sep 16 2007, 09:54 AM']So it seems that the fag comments are just immature males trying to be hurtful because you are not a 'hormone controlled' animalistic male. Then you're harrassment has nothing to do with SSA or being gay, they're just rude, innappropirate, hateful comments because you're 'diffferent' because you have morals, not because of SSA.[/quote]

IL,

If Anomaly's analysis is correct, then maybe you should begin to rethink this as religious harassment instead. You may want to start lifting weights and explain that certain thing syou don't do for religious reasons, and finish with this phrase "Is there a problem with that?" - and do it in an authoratative tone of voice.

[Justin86]

[quote name='infinitelord1' post='1386521' date='Sep 16 2007, 11:29 PM']This stuff is not supposed to leave a training environment but its certainly possible that it did.[/quote]
It's [i]not[/i]?

Sorry, but if you claim to be attracted to your same sex you shouldn't be in the military. I don't want to shower next to a gay dude. I don't care if you find that mean, offensive or against equal opportunity. That's how it is.

In my opinion it is completely scandalous that the Army let you get away with this twice--I mean [i]twice[/i]??? I'm stunned. Congress should be investigating the Army for [i]that[/i] not for 18-21 year olds making fun of gays.

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='Justin86' post='1386947' date='Sep 17 2007, 05:44 AM']It's [i]not[/i]?

Sorry, but if you claim to be attracted to your same sex you shouldn't be in the military. I don't want to shower next to a gay dude. I don't care if you find that mean, offensive or against equal opportunity. That's how it is.

In my opinion it is completely scandalous that the Army let you get away with this twice--I mean [i]twice[/i]??? I'm stunned. Congress should be investigating the Army for [i]that[/i] not for 18-21 year olds making fun of gays.[/quote]


Well I admit they should have taken action when they had the opportunity. And yes im sure that it would be hard to shower next to a gay dude.

I think the reason why they didnt take action was because of the nature in which I revealed this information. The interpretation of the "don't ask don't tell" policy is controversial. Under the Homosexual conduct portion of the policy....it says that the soldier cannot show a propensity to engage in homosexual acts. The controversy lies within the interpretation of "propensity". Does that mean that because the soldier has SSA that if that person is to have sex it would be with someone of the same sex? Or does it mean that the person can express SSA but at the same time reveal that he/she does not intend on acting upon it?It may be intrepreted that way since the very next sentence says..."the soldier can present evidence that he/she does not engage in homosexual acts and does not have a propensity or intent to do so".A commander can subject the person to punishment under the UCMJ in either case.

In my case I revealed that I had SSA, but I also revealed that I did not intend on acting upon those feelings.

I am glad that you did not try to rationalize why you think gays shouldn't be in the military. You did not make a moral issue out of it....rather you simply stated that it just makes you feel uncomfortable. I think it is as simple as that, and thats why I think most people don't want gays in the military. I think they use morallity to try to justify keeping them out.

My opinion is that morallity is not a reason to keep gays out of the military since we are all sinners. It is hypocritical to keep someone out because of a sin they commit since we are all sinners. Some people dont even engage in the sin.....why keep them out? Because it makes people feel uncomfortable showering or living with them? This is the only reason that I can find.

[Red Knight]

Regardless of what type of issue occurs in the military, there are steps that must be followed:

1. Chain of command, regardless of wheteher or not someone in your chain is involved. You MUST use the chain of command. That is an essential part of military life and when you break this rule, you lose all credibility with your fellow soldiers.

2. Inspector General, if you receive no action through the chain of command, take it to the IG. Their role is to assist the soldier when problems arise within the chain of command.

The last, and I mean LAST thing you want to do is contact a Representative or Senator. It may not be right, but that will blackball you. Especially if you didn't do the first two steps above.

I wasn't able to glean exactly what you did prior to the congressional, but I get the feeling you didn't do steps above.

So you have SSA, so what? The military life is difficult at the best of times. Being a 'sensitive male' only makes it harder. If they didn't teach you that at basic or AIT, then we failed to make it clear enough. In my opinion basic is too easy these days, and it was pretty easy when I went through it, but tougher than it is now.

It's pretty clear to me that your DI's were right about failure to adapt.

Let me tell you a story from my own experience. I don't like people to use the Lord's name in vain. I made it clear to those I work with that they can feel free to say pretty much anything they want, just not to take the Lord's name in vain. After reminding people a number of times, even the most hard core blasphemers stopped in my presence. Why? Respect.

stating clearly that you find something offensive and asking people to refrain from it, repeatedly, can get results.

Many people want to serve their country in the military but can't for various reasons. Find an other way to serve and suppport.

I'm gathering from your posts that the military is not the right fit for you. Seek a discharge and get out. Don't turn this into a political statement about SSA or homosexuality.

Red

[fides quarens intellectum]

sorry - i hadn't been in the debate table in a bit, so i just saw this one.

[quote name='ironmonk' post='1381420' date='Sep 8 2007, 08:36 PM']If someone did have same sex attraction, they shouldn't be in the military.[/quote]

what?!


[quote name='ironmonk' post='1381731' date='Sep 9 2007, 11:46 AM']People who live the homosexual lifestyle have no business in the military.
That's like a straight guy staying in a girls dorm in college.[/quote]

just don't think we can equate SSA with living a homosexual lifestyle.


[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1381795' date='Sep 9 2007, 01:48 PM']As for weight-lifting being a way to prove that you are not gay, I don't understand it. Are there no gay men who lift weights? Are there no straight men who have no interest in weights at all?[/quote]




[quote name='ironmonk' post='1383202' date='Sep 10 2007, 09:58 PM']As for no homosexuals in the military.... I agree 100% with General Pace... a Catholic.

-------------------------------------
[url="http://www.catholicmil.org/html/article.php?id=557"]http://www.catholicmil.org/html/article.php?id=557[/url]

[b]No Surrender: Catholic Marine’s Beliefs Under Fire[/b]
Written by Paul A. Barra
02Apr07

— America’s top military officer generated a firestorm of criticism last week when he called homosexual acts immoral and said that the military should not condone them.[/quote]

i think it was clear that he was speaking out against homosexual acts (and adulterous heterosexual acts, and any other immorality, too). again, we can't equate SSA with actively living out a homosexual lifestyle.


[quote name='ironmonk' post='1384618' date='Sep 12 2007, 09:07 PM']People who live the homosexual lifestyle are too immoral for the military because they practice an abomination. Many people in the military fornicate, but fornication is not an abomination.[/quote]

oh really?


[quote name='Norseman82' post='1386461' date='Sep 16 2007, 02:22 AM']HUH???

Extra-marital sex - no matter if it's with your own half of humanity or the opposite - is a mortal sin. Does someone say to themselves, "oh, well, I'm in hell, but at least it wasn't for an abomination"? How can something be less of a mortal sin? It all has the same penalty.

As someone once said, hell is hot no matter who you sleep with to get there.[/quote]

thank you!


-------

i also noticed something - so, it's okay to toss words around like "fag" and "qwerty" on here, but people have to type things like "sh**" and my personal favorite, "carp" so that they're not edited by a moderator?

in the end, i'm sorry you're going through this, but as i am not a military person and am very ignorant on how it works/what it requires from soldiers/airmen/etc, i have no guidance/suggestions to offer. instead, only prayers.

Peace in Christ.

[Paladin D]

The *homosexual lifestyle* is a mortal sin, like any other mortal sin. Implying that it is somehow the most evil out of all the sins is inaccurate.

[b]EDIT:[/b] Want to make it clear that "homosexual lifestyle" and same-sex attraction (SSA) are two different things. SSA isn't necessarily a sin unless it's acted upon, in which it would fall under a "homosexual lifestyle".

Edited September 29, 2007 by Paladin D

[Maggyie]

[quote]i also noticed something - so, it's okay to toss words around like "fag" and "qwerty" on here, but people have to type things like "sh**" and my personal favorite, "carp" so that they're not edited by a moderator? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idontknow.gif)[/quote]

If you haven't noticed, the word "qwerty" gets turned into "qwerty" automatically by the phorum software. That's also how "carp" gets turned into carp. People aren't actually typing carp, they're typing the other semi-dirty word, and the software changes it. Just FYI.