Harassment Of Homosexuals In The Military

[ironmonk]

[quote name='infinitelord1' post='1381625' date='Sep 9 2007, 07:02 AM']Oh and there was another incident where a guy said " that [my name] guy is a fag". Proof in my eyes lies within just a few comments like that. Other than that it was all a mind game. What am I supposed to say?[/quote]


Hey bro,

Say something like "I'm not a fag." is a good start, maybe add: "where did you get that from?" - and take mental notes, their answer could help you figure out why this type of behavior comes out from others.

Saying "that offends me" - leaves someone to assume it offends you because you might have same sex attraction.

God Bless,
ironmonk

[ironmonk]

[quote name='infinitelord1' post='1381627' date='Sep 9 2007, 08:32 AM']Look I know that every organization has bullies in it. The truth is...they dont want gays in the military. Thats why i said that about the army.[/quote]

People who live the homosexual lifestyle have no business in the military.

That's like a straight guy staying in a girls dorm in college.


God Bless,
ironmonk

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote name='dUSt' post='1380814' date='Sep 8 2007, 09:56 AM']Sticks and stones may hurt my bones but words will never hurt me. I learned that as a child and I suppose it stuck. Ever heard this phrase? Ever try to live by it?[/quote]

I don't think there is much truth in that saying. Maybe it's true if no one has ever said anything really hurtful to you. But as somebody who received real, serious death threats from the age of nine, I know that words can really hurt - insults just as much as threats. They make you feel very lonely. Especially if you have no friends to talk to.

I've been in a similar situation to IL, only I wasn't bullied for reasons of sexuality. I was bullied for being British and a Christian. My parents didn't realise how serious the situation was and kept telling me things like to 'compromise' and 'go with the flow'. The sticks-and-stones adage was mentioned a few times as well. It wasn't easy, especially as if something went wrong in the classroom (a person ruined some equipment, for example) it was blamed on me. Even if I hadn't been in the room at the time. And the teachers just accepted it, because my accusers were Muslims 'and Muslims don't lie'.

When I had developed a couple of mental health problems as a result of the situation (bed-wetting, disordered eating, fear of going outside, etc.) my parents understood that I had a real problem and withdrew me from the school where it was happening. We were living in a little mountain village at that time. It was very remote and backward. All in all, it lasted for six months - but I carried the scars for longer than that.

Perhaps I'm just being cynical, but I suspect that IL would get a lot more sympathy on here if he were complaining of religious discrimination. In my eyes, any bullying is still bullying. And it's not to be excused.

I don't think he's handled it that well either, but we can't undo the past. IL seems like quite a shy and introverted type. Not everybody has a robust personality. IL needs to deal with things in accordance with his strengths, not in accordance with what other people think his strengths should be.

Edited September 9, 2007 by Cathoholic Anonymous

[ironmonk]

[quote name='infinitelord1' post='1381657' date='Sep 9 2007, 11:33 AM']You cant compare homosexual to these other people. You know why? because for the most part homosexuals can not really change there feelings. They do however have the option of acting on them or not. Just because you have same sex attractions doesnt mean your going to hell. Its acting on them that is bad. So why deny someone the right to serve their country because they have homosexual attractions? There is only one reason i can think of that would justify not letting homosexuals serve. And that would be because other members of the service would not treat them as a comrade...."I will never leave a fallen comrade"....that is a quote from the soldiers creed. Its obvious that the majority of people dont like gays....and it doesnt even matter if a person lives their life like that or not.[/quote]

Dude... "equal opportunity" applies to race, sex, religion, creed. Equal opportunity does not apply and should not apply to someones sexual desires.

People can change... the minute someone says that they can't change, then they show they don't want to change.

Get educated on the subject:
[url="http://www.cathmed.org/publications/homosexuality.htm"]http://www.cathmed.org/publications/homosexuality.htm[/url]


Homosexual lifestyle is a anti-society lifestyle. Society is built on familys - father, mother, children... Homosexual lifestyle cannot be embraced for a society to survive... When more people die than children are created then society will suffer. Because of abortion and birth control the US is looking at a serious population issue over the next twenty years... but this is another topic, point being is if the homosexual lifestyle is embraced as normal, it will cause more damage on society. People who live the homosexual lifestyle should not be discriminated against in most cases, but the military is an exception to that rule because it's like a straight guy in a girls dorm. In the office place, people with SSA should not be discriminated against... but a lot of the people I know that are SSA are not the "in your face" SSA type... if anyone needs to tell the world about their sexual lifestyle, they have serious social issues and are not a good hire... but again, I digress.

God Bless,
ironmonk

[ironmonk]

Ok... for those of you who have been picked on... Join the club.

It is something we have to learn to move past and be stronger.

I've been picked on, jumped by 7 people, etc... did I sit in a corner and cry about it, feel sorry for myself, or whine to anyone else... I figured out what I need to do and did it...

I laughed off comments... people saw it didn't bother me... I started talking to people - small talk, was cool with everyone, always offered to help... lifted weights... openly Catholic... no one mistaken me for being a homosexual anymore.

Anyone can change the way people perceive them, the one thing that they have to do is try.


God Bless,
ironmonk

[Anomaly]

I just don't understand how much 'gayness' society needs to accept and tolerate? Is it okay or not? Is there a 'Catholic' limit? Is it just 'Catholics' who have their arbitrary religious opinion that can't be applied to society in general, or is it a fundamental principle that acting on homosexual urges is wrong? If acting on homosexual urges is wrong, how much 'gay behavior' is acceptable before it is determined to cross the line? Is it 'gay sex' (genital touching), or is gay kissing? Is hugging okay, or just holding hands? Is it moving your cot next to your 'friend' or just moving into his cot (but not engaging in sex)?

I honestly don't know what Catholics or other Christians think the limit is supposed to be? What do YOU want infinitelord1? What behavior do you want to engage in and not have something said by you, or anyone eles?

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote name='ironmonk' post='1381737' date='Sep 9 2007, 07:03 PM']Ok... for those of you who have been picked on... Join the club.

It is something we have to learn to move past and be stronger.[/quote]

No one who has ever been bullied is capable of saying that.

[quote]I've been picked on, jumped by 7 people, etc... did I sit in a corner and cry about it, feel sorry for myself, or whine to anyone else... I figured out what I need to do and did it...

I laughed off comments... people saw it didn't bother me... I started talking to people - small talk, was cool with everyone, always offered to help... lifted weights... openly Catholic... no one mistaken me for being a homosexual anymore.[/quote]

Seeking comfort and help is different from 'whining' and 'feeling sorry for yourself'. It's precisely because they're afraid of seeing cowardly and attention-seeking that so many people who are being bullied don't talk about it. My primary experience comes from teenagers who are bullied as a result of disabilities, who would do anything to be able to fit in. They don't want to complain, to seem anything but 'normal'. So it just gets worse and worse and worse for them. I've written an award-winning book that covers this in detail. I know from my research that it is a serious problem.

As for 'laughing it off' or 'starting talking to people', that wasn't possible for me. I am autistic. I don't speak to people I don't know well. Sometimes I [i]can't[/i] speak to people I don't well. The words don't come out, and when they do they're often the wrong ones. University has been an incredible challenge to me because of this. Last term I went to three lectures out of eighty because I couldn't deal with the crowds in the lecture theatre. By the grace of God I passed my exams, coupled with private study late at night when the library was empty.

Not everyone who struggles to deal with people has autism. Some people, like IL, are just naturally shy. They shouldn't be looked down on for that. We don't all have the same personality or the same strengths.

As for weight-lifting being a way to prove that you are not gay, I don't understand it. Are there no gay men who lift weights? Are there no straight men who have no interest in weights at all? There must be. I don't see why weight-lifting should be proof of anything except muscle strength and enjoyment of that kind of exercise.

[quote]Anyone can change the way people perceive them, the one thing that they have to do is try.[/quote]

It doesn't always work that way.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1381795' date='Sep 9 2007, 03:48 PM']No one who has ever been bullied is capable of saying that.[/quote]

That is a very myopic view of the world and people. At a point in my life, I was bullied, and I say that.

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1381795' date='Sep 9 2007, 03:48 PM']Seeking comfort and help is different from 'whining' and 'feeling sorry for yourself'. It's precisely because they're afraid of seeing cowardly and attention-seeking that so many people who are being bullied don't talk about it. My primary experience comes from teenagers who are bullied as a result of disabilities, who would do anything to be able to fit in. They don't want to complain, to seem anything but 'normal'. So it just gets worse and worse and worse for them. I've written an award-winning book that covers this in detail. I know from my research that it is a serious problem.[/quote]
We are not talking about disabilities in this context. People with disabilities is something TOTALLY different.


[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1381795' date='Sep 9 2007, 03:48 PM']As for 'laughing it off' or 'starting talking to people', that wasn't possible for me. I am autistic. I don't speak to people I don't know well. Sometimes I [i]can't[/i] speak to people I don't well. The words don't come out, and when they do they're often the wrong ones. University has been an incredible challenge to me because of this. Last term I went to three lectures out of eighty because I couldn't deal with the crowds in the lecture theatre. By the grace of God I passed my exams, coupled with private study late at night when the library was empty.

Not everyone who struggles to deal with people has autism. Some people, like IL, are just naturally shy. They shouldn't be looked down on for that. We don't all have the same personality or the same strengths.[/quote]

Your situation is quite different. We are not talking about disabilities.

If someone wants to function in society then shyness might be something they need to overcome. People can overcome shyness.

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1381795' date='Sep 9 2007, 03:48 PM']As for weight-lifting being a way to prove that you are not gay, I don't understand it. Are there no gay men who lift weights? Are there no straight men who have no interest in weights at all? There must be. I don't see why weight-lifting should be proof of anything except muscle strength and enjoyment of that kind of exercise.
It doesn't always work that way.[/quote]

Does everything have to be explained to you? "Weight lifting" could be almost anything, he needs to interact and find common ground... It was an example of what I did. I'm sorry you didn't catch that.

When people communicate, not everything needs to be said or written. Obviously if someone is given a testamony to how they overcame certain issues then not everything written will have a direct meaning to how the other person having problems should overcome it. In a thread on a board, one should take into account everything that has been posted by someone on a thread to get a better picture of the context that writer is trying to deliver. I also mentioned to get an xbox on this thread, do you think that in and of itself would prove someone not to have ssa? No... that would be ridiculous.


God Bless,
ironmonk

[Socrates]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1381795' date='Sep 9 2007, 01:48 PM']No one who has ever been bullied is capable of saying that.
Seeking comfort and help is different from 'whining' and 'feeling sorry for yourself'. It's precisely because they're afraid of seeing cowardly and attention-seeking that so many people who are being bullied don't talk about it. My primary experience comes from teenagers who are bullied as a result of disabilities, who would do anything to be able to fit in. They don't want to complain, to seem anything but 'normal'. So it just gets worse and worse and worse for them. I've written an award-winning book that covers this in detail. I know from my research that it is a serious problem.

As for 'laughing it off' or 'starting talking to people', that wasn't possible for me. I am autistic. I don't speak to people I don't know well. Sometimes I [i]can't[/i] speak to people I don't well. The words don't come out, and when they do they're often the wrong ones. University has been an incredible challenge to me because of this. Last term I went to three lectures out of eighty because I couldn't deal with the crowds in the lecture theatre. By the grace of God I passed my exams, coupled with private study late at night when the library was empty.

Not everyone who struggles to deal with people has autism. Some people, like IL, are just naturally shy. They shouldn't be looked down on for that. We don't all have the same personality or the same strengths.

As for weight-lifting being a way to prove that you are not gay, I don't understand it. Are there no gay men who lift weights? Are there no straight men who have no interest in weights at all? There must be. I don't see why weight-lifting should be proof of anything except muscle strength and enjoyment of that kind of exercise.
It doesn't always work that way.[/quote]
Personally, I think Ironmonk was given some excellent advice in this thread, which I really can't add much to.
I don't intend to minimize IL's suffering in anyway, nor excuse his tormentors, but if he can't handle this, he really has no place in the military. Military life's tough, and there's really no easy solution to his problems; he's going to have to work through them himself, and might do well to heed the advice of Ironmonk and others. Writing a senator really won't accomplish much.

And autism and such are different matters. Autistics probably don't belong in the military, as is true of people with plenty of other disabilities. The military's not for everyone. The purpose of the armed forces (un-p.c. is this may be) is to fight the enemy in warfare. The military's not a big government baby-sitting service. Quite frankly, if one can't handle bullying, chances are good he won't be able to handle combat.

Anyways, IL, best luck to you soldier, and you'll be in my prayers.

[Norseman82]

The benefit of weightlifting is that if you bulk up, people might be less inclined to pick on you, which is another reason I suggested that he hit the gym.

Peace through strength.

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote name='ironmonk' post='1381913' date='Sep 9 2007, 10:18 PM']That is a very myopic view of the world and people. At a point in my life, I was bullied, and I say that.
We are not talking about disabilities in this context. People with disabilities is something TOTALLY different.
Your situation is quite different. We are not talking about disabilities.[/quote]

There is surprisingly little difference. Bullying tends to follow a typical pattern, irrespective of what leads to a person being targeted - be it race, disability, sexuality, having a big nose, or whatever. The psychological effects are similar. The difference lies in the way the situation is dealt with.

[quote]Does everything have to be explained to you? "Weight lifting" could be almost anything, he needs to interact and find common ground... It was an example of what I did. I'm sorry you didn't catch that.[/quote]

Being autistic, I take language very literally. If you are using weight lifting as a general rather than a specific example, I will not make the extrapolation unless it is pointed out to me. I'm sorry. I agree with your point on interaction and finding common ground, although that it not always easy advice to take. I tried it when I was still in high school and didn't succeed until I met a few people who were prepared to meet me half way. Those people were to become my closest friends.

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1381920' date='Sep 9 2007, 10:25 PM']Personally, I think Ironmonk was given some excellent advice in this thread, which I really can't add much to.
I don't intend to minimize IL's suffering in anyway, nor excuse his tormentors, but if he can't handle this, he really has no place in the military. Military life's tough, and there's really no easy solution to his problems; he's going to have to work through them himself, and might do well to heed the advice of Ironmonk and others. Writing a senator really won't accomplish much.

And autism and such are different matters. Autistics probably don't belong in the military, as is true of people with plenty of other disabilities. The military's not for everyone. The purpose of the armed forces (un-p.c. is this may be) is to fight the enemy in warfare. The military's not a big government baby-sitting service. Quite frankly, if one can't handle bullying, chances are good he won't be able to handle combat.

Anyways, IL, best luck to you soldier, and you'll be in my prayers.[/quote]

Although somebody once suggested that I join the Royal Air Force (they thought I would make a good code-breaker) I refused to sit the aptitude test because I knew that I wouldn't be good at the other things that come with being in the RAF. I can see that the military isn't a suitable place for many people. I'm not sure whether this applies to IL as I don't know him. Presumably he must have some of the required strengths to be able to get into the military in the first place. I probably wouldn't have passed the RAF's tests.

I think that there is a difference between the kind of courage needed on the battlefield and the kind of courage needed to handle bullying. Plenty of very brave men and women struggle with bullying - especially when it comes from people who are meant to be your comrades. It's psychologically corrosive. My brother is in the British Army and he says that it is a big problem in places. He got incredibly angry with a group of bullies when his regiment was in Iraq, as he said that they were bad for morale. The military is no place for bullies either, especially as bullying is usually cowardice in disguise.

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='ironmonk' post='1381734' date='Sep 9 2007, 12:56 PM']Dude... "equal opportunity" applies to race, sex, religion, creed. Equal opportunity does not apply and should not apply to someones sexual desires.

People can change... the minute someone says that they can't change, then they show they don't want to change.

Get educated on the subject:
[url="http://www.cathmed.org/publications/homosexuality.htm"]http://www.cathmed.org/publications/homosexuality.htm[/url]
Homosexual lifestyle is a anti-society lifestyle. Society is built on familys - father, mother, children... Homosexual lifestyle cannot be embraced for a society to survive... When more people die than children are created then society will suffer. Because of abortion and birth control the US is looking at a serious population issue over the next twenty years... but this is another topic, point being is if the homosexual lifestyle is embraced as normal, it will cause more damage on society. People who live the homosexual lifestyle should not be discriminated against in most cases, but the military is an exception to that rule because it's like a straight guy in a girls dorm. In the office place, people with SSA should not be discriminated against... but a lot of the people I know that are SSA are not the "in your face" SSA type... if anyone needs to tell the world about their sexual lifestyle, they have serious social issues and are not a good hire... but again, I digress.

God Bless,
ironmonk[/quote]


So what you are saying is only select individuals should be gaurenteed equal opportunity...you cant call it equal opportunity then. You are also saying that it is ok to harass people if they are suspected or even openly gay. The reason why I say this is....you are saying that equal opportunity does not apply to homosexuals. This leaves it open for gays to harassed and mistreated if there are no laws protecting them or even no laws being enforced. The military has a law that protects them...unfortunately it is not being enforced. Some corporations even include sexual orientation in the equal opportunity policies. So you cant say that equal opportunity applies to all the above except homosexuality.

I dont think god wants even his gay people to be harassed. In fact, i think God would prefer that people reach out to his gay people to comfort them. Maybe if everyone was excepting of gay people then there wouldnt be as many gays in this world. I have done my research on this subject. As a matter of fact, one of the root causes of homosexuality is emotional, and is caused by lack of bonding with the same sex. Maybe if heterosexual men would treat gays like one of their own...it might just fill those emotional gaps and at least lessen homosexual attractions. What makes it so hard is that most men cant stand being around gay men...and it is unlikely that a gay man would have this sort of opportunity.

While some gay people want to make homosexuality a "norm"....some people suffering from SSA may not argue homosexuality being morally wrong. Because our society is such a "gay bashing" society...it makes it very hard for those who are trying to change. People dont take the time to understand the beliefs of someone who is suffering from SSA...they just write them off as a "fag".

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1381743' date='Sep 9 2007, 01:11 PM']I just don't understand how much 'gayness' society needs to accept and tolerate? Is it okay or not? Is there a 'Catholic' limit? Is it just 'Catholics' who have their arbitrary religious opinion that can't be applied to society in general, or is it a fundamental principle that acting on homosexual urges is wrong? If acting on homosexual urges is wrong, how much 'gay behavior' is acceptable before it is determined to cross the line? Is it 'gay sex' (genital touching), or is gay kissing? Is hugging okay, or just holding hands? Is it moving your cot next to your 'friend' or just moving into his cot (but not engaging in sex)?

I honestly don't know what Catholics or other Christians think the limit is supposed to be? What do YOU want infinitelord1? What behavior do you want to engage in and not have something said by you, or anyone eles?[/quote]


Homosexuality is wrong. Harassing homosexuals is wrong. Harassing people who suffer from SSA is wrong too. How do you think people who dont live homosexual lifestyles yet suffer from SSA should be treated? I think they should be treated fairly.

[desertwoman]

Word. There is a difference about someone teasing you about you having big feet. People will kill you if they think you are gay.