Harassment Of Homosexuals In The Military

[Paladin D]

[b]Infinite[/b], I'm sorry to see what you had (and still are) going through. I pray that in the end, everything works out. God will watch over you. Keep pushing on Soldier.

[Semalsia]

I have no doubt that you must be going through hell. I hope you are not offended by what I'm about to say, that's not my intention in any way. I do hope things will get better for you.


[quote]I see this as the army trying to push me out.[/quote]

You probably don't care about my opinion, but I think going to the army was a mistake in the first place. I mean, surely you must have seen this coming. If you have been harassed about your sexuality in almost every social place you've been, then why would you have thought the army were any different? In fact, it should have been obvious that the army is about 100 times worse than anything else when it comes to this. A group of straight men spending all their time together and bonding with each other, of course they are hostile to any hint of homosexuality. Not to mention all the penis waving that must be going on there.

Why are you still in the army? Why don't you leave? If you're not wanted there anymore and if being there is a continuous torment for you. I don't understand why your staying there if you can get out. I don't even think it's healthy staying in such an environment.

[quote]Ive done things that have shown that I am not gay. The truth is, it doesnt matter what you do or say...a lot of times they find it to be comical when you show (by action or word) that you are not homosexual....they continue to believe that you are and you still continue to get harassed.[/quote]

Now I'm confused. I thought you are gay. I even remember you saying so.

Anyway, if you are, then isn't their belief accurate? Maybe they just have a good gaydar.


Of course it would be great if you could change the world to be more tolerant of gays, but I just don't think the army is a good place to start.

[Paladin D]

You can't just "leave" the US Army, unless you do something what warrants a dishonorable discharge (or wait till your term is up).

If I'm wrong, someone correct me.

Edited September 9, 2007 by Paladin D

[ironmonk]

[quote name='XIX' post='1380171' date='Sep 7 2007, 02:12 AM']I'm sorry, I have to interject here...thinking back to my days when I was picked on a lot, I would have been verbally slammed for saying something like that. They'd say "ohhhhhhhhhhhhh, tough guy! Oh nice comeback!"
That might work a little better; people *might* respect you if they know there is something important to you.[/quote]

The point is say something... not exactly that - I wrote "I would say say"... and depending on their reaction would determine other actions/comments. Don't just sit there and say nothing.

So what if they would have said "OHHH toughguy"... laugh it off and grow up. Some people are going to be rude... they'll say rude things...

If you are in the military, there is a good chance that you are going to have to deal with a lot than a little name calling... Give me a break. What does not kill us makes us stronger.

If someone can't deal with a name calling, then how are they going to function in a time of war? If they can't deal with name calling then they are not going to be able to deal with war. The military makes soldiers... do you really have a clue what that actually means? Someone who gets the job done. Someone who can take a beating and give one. Someone willing to die for their country, for the guy next to them in the hole, etc.... If someone feels that they are called to the military by God, and if they are, and they feel a need to call a senator over name calling and because they think people don't like them, if God is calling them, maybe He's toughening them up for the real world.

Maybe you don't know what it means by *respect*... aka some maybe all would stop calling him "fag". The point was not "toughguy" respect as I think you imply, but deal with it yourself somehow. Saying nothing is not going to help the situation. If you are in the army, toughen up because there is a chance you will see some serious action...

You can't make soldiers in a padded romper room while telling everyone they are ok, and we are ok.

You can't force the other soldiers to like you by crying to a senator - totally going over superiors heads. You invite worse treatment by acting like a child crying for help over something so minor.

Welcome to the real world, people might not like you, people might call you names.... life goes on, get over it.

Did he say "Guys, I'm not gay and I don't appreciate being called a fag. If you want to know something about me, just ask. I'm here to <insert statement here>." - I didn't get that impression... even if he did say that, going to a senator is a waste of a senators time over not being liked and someone calling him a fag.

If someone did have same sex attraction, they shouldn't be in the military. So I don't think the issue here is really being called a "fag" but being called anything... the term is not the issue, unless he did have same sex attraction and then he shouldn't be in the military (I don't think he has same sex attraction)



[quote name='XIX' post='1380171' date='Sep 7 2007, 02:12 AM']Oh, she put a stop to it.[/quote]

Did she also make everyone like you?

There are two parts to his problem. Being picked on and people not liking him. Do you think the senator can make the other soldiers like him? No.

nuff said.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1380277' date='Sep 7 2007, 11:40 AM']Ironmonk

I am afraid this is one of the rare times I disagree with you (and dust as well). For one very good reason. Those who are involved in this are sinning, grieviously. They are in fact breaking the law. Now I don't know the motivation for IL as to why he is going after these people. He needs to try and have detachment in this matter. But as some will recall, a couple of young men came in to my neighborhood this summer and threatened to shoot everyone on the block. A felony, terristic threat. Do I really think they will do it? No, but that is not the point. First of all they affected the lives of others (as the actions of those who are taunting IL are doing and it will affect those whom he comes in to contact with because he will not be the person God wants him to be) and also these guys will continue to think they can get away with it and will do the same to others. They are damaging and degrading the God given dignity of another human being. That should not be tolerated anywhere. But more importantly they are damaging their own souls. I didn't prosecute those two kids for myself or if I did that was a very small part of the motivation. I did it as much for them. People do not recieve consequence for their actions today and therefore do not reform. These guys need consequence and IL is in fact loving them in having them stand up before the law on that matter. I applaud him for that. They need to smell of elderberries it up when they face the music for their actions and REPENT! It iis for the salvation of THEIR SOULS that they need to have consequences, that their hard hearts may be softened.[/quote]


Bro, I understand your point, but if he didn't say anything to them and went straight to writing a senator instead of addressing them first, then it was handled wrong.

The delivery of a message does a great deal more than the message... If it were me, I'd be smiling when I replied and I would continue a conversation... what I would say would depend on their reaction.

The point is that he needs to learn to deal with little things like this on his own. Charity demands correction... because of charity he should have corrected them... maybe he would need to do straight forward comments instead of tongue in cheek... I like tongue in cheek, and I love to push people's buttons - if someone strikes my nerve. Sometimes I find it necessary to strike multiple emotions in people to get them to think... That is how I would have delt with it. That is how I have delt with it... and it worked.

My major point... if he did not give them a reply or address them directly before going to a senator, then he screwed up big time.


-----

General ramblings about the topic....

Going to a senator is not the way to handle military issues. First - try to resolve it yourself, like an adult. Second - if the first doesn't work, take it up the chain of command. Third - continue up to a point and if nothing has happened that one wants, either finish you time and get out or change.


A secondary point that I had was if this is a kind of thing he has experienced over the past... if something is always happening to someone in various settings by different people, then that person is doing something [i]wrong[/i] and needs to ajust to be able to function.


Someone has to look at themselves or talk to someone and figure out what they need to change about themselves to be able to do what they want.... or they are going to always have to deal with people not liking them and maybe calling them names.

When we are alienated by others, that tells us that we need to change something about the way we interact with others... (for those of you who do not look at the context of my writings - pay close attention to this... "Change" does not mean to change for the worse, it means to improve - So before someone posts a stupid question/statement - I'm not telling him to talk bad about women.) Heck, he could talk about women in a good way. --- but I already wrote something similar to that point.

I seriously doubt this is about someone having same sex attraction and more about the lack of personal interaction. I would venture to say that this is a good lesson for him to interact more.


IL, please note, I don't know the whole story but you have to take a step back and try to look at your interactions objectively. Ask youself some questions. You might have done all the things that I had mentioned and tried to talk to them yourself.... but going to a senator is a waste of time for both you and the senator. The fact that they sent an investagator really bothers me as a huge waste. If you have been called names in the past before you got in the military, don't let this be your "i'm getting back at them all" stand... figure out what might be causing it... and adapt... communicate with people. You can't get anyone to force others to like you. Learn to take a little jest... such as your new crew asking you to go get girls.... why don't you say something like "I'm Catholic and I want a good Catholic girl"... Did you say anyting to them asking "What do you want a penis instead?"?

You have to learn to interact with people bro... how else can you witness to them?

If you can't communicate with people who call you names because they think you don't like any of them because you won't talk to them, how are you being a witness for Christ?

This problem is very complex and you are going to have to analyze yourself and the way you don't or do communicate with others.


Now I must take another sidebar because I know some here will be like "you're not one to talk max"... and my reply is that: this is a message board, not daily life [b]and I'm not a writer[/b]... if you heard me saying the stuff I write, you wouldn't think it was harsh - so don't bother telling me LOL... The first time I played a game with Dust and he heard my voice it gave him a new light into the tone of my writing.

Logic and reason: Someone needs to be able to deal with name calling before they can deal with war. If they can't, they need to learn. Soldiers need to be tough: mentally, physically, and spiritually. What does not kill someone can make them stronger. Soldiers need to be able to handle things themselves... especially being called a name and not being liked by others. - both can be fixed by the soldier... only one [i][b]might [/b][/i]be fixed by a senator.


God Bless,
ironmonk

Edited September 9, 2007 by ironmonk

[Norseman82]

dUSt,

Sorry to lock horns with you, but you need to realize that IL more than likely does not have the luxury of going home after a day of work or school or move to a different place to escape the harassment. He is military, he has to deal with it 24/7, and he cannot simply move to another state. That is a not something to be taken lightly. And if he responds in a wrong way, he could be court-martialed. These are the constraints he is under and need to be worked with. Yes, he has to deal with the blows, but that doesn't mean that he should just take it lying down. 24/7 harassment is a living nightmare. You wouldn't tell a battered wife to just "smell of elderberries it up", would you?

IL,

It sounds like no matter what you do, there is a group of people who have it in for you. Have you considered my suggestion on talking with your chaplain and seeing if there are other Catholic troops you could network with socially? It sounds like you need a better group of people to hang around with.

And what about hitting the gym?

Edited September 9, 2007 by Norseman82

[ironmonk]

[quote name='infinitelord1' post='1380801' date='Sep 8 2007, 03:06 AM']ok so far there seems to be some controversy in regards to how i handled the situation. Some of you look at me as a coward for how i dealt with this. Well i cant really argue that.

When dealing with a situation like this...allegations are very hard to prove. In my situation, I have no friends or anybody who I can trust who would be willing to testify for me. I fear that because they sense my weakness...they are not willing to open up to me as well. I know I am a quiet person which also makes things more difficult. But for those who dont like the way i handle this...you must know this...you cant blame a victim for how he/she handles a situation...I felt that i should handle in the manner that i did to not only get the best results, but to send a message to people. These people need to realize that their careers may be at stake when they choose to attack people in ways like this. Dont blame the victim for what happens to them....blame them for putting their own careers on the line. Their intentions were not good and frankly I think they were trying to get me out of the military. I dont see this as a group of people who were trying to push me out....I see this as the army trying to push me out.

Let me ask you people this....have you ever been discriminated against? Have you ever been in an environment where everyone gives you dirty looks as you pass by and even discrimates against you by using verbal attacks? Its one thing when its just a few people, and another when its a mass of people. There is some truth to me being a coward. I havent always been very good at handling adversity. I will note however that i have stuck up for myself on occasions during my stay here in Korea. Not just with this issue, but with a few others.

You also have to understand that when it comes to an issue like this....its a huge mind game. They are never gonna admit that they used the word fag, qwerty, gay etc. in the context they are using it in when they harass someone. They will always try to make it look like common language. This is something that I went through with my old roommate. He would say "fag" as I would walk out the door and when i confronted him about it...he would give some bad excuse like "oh i was talking about what was on the TV" or whatever. Then he would continue to say the word and I know he was directing it at me. They are very indirect and subtle a lot of times. Like I said...its a huge mind game. Some others are more direct about it. But very very rarely will they confront you directly. It becomes a mind game that takes its toll over time. Its very hard to prove.

I also want to say that i have showed that someday I want to get married and have kids. I even asked a girl out on a date, I even danced with a girl in a club in front a group of my comrades....one of them said "yeah hes gay" while i was dancing with her (i happened to catch him saying it cuz i looked at him when he said it). Ive done things that have shown that I am not gay. The truth is, it doesnt matter what you do or say...a lot of times they find it to be comical when you show (by action or word) that you are not homosexual....they continue to believe that you are and you still continue to get harassed.
I would tell my old roommate that I wanted to get married one day and how i wanted to wait until marriage to have sex....he would still tell people, right in front of me, that i was a "homo". Its a huge mind game.

Ill be honest...it really pisses me off that you people would say stuff like "get over it" etc. You really have no idea what its like. It doesnt stop. Thats ok though....just continue on with your merry lives. Im not asking for any sympathy from you.[/quote]


Bro... this is a learning experience for you.

Things are only as bad as you let them be.

Communicate with people. Talk to them. You need to handle things like this for yourself. No one is going to fix it for you... if you don't learn how to fix it yourself, you will always bring this treatment on yourself because you haven't adapted your communication with people. If you don't want to change, pick a career where you don't have to be around people... live as a hermit.... but this type of situation will follow you everywhere....

A good rule of thumb....
If everyone picks on you and has for a long time in you life no matter where you go, then you are the one that is going to have to change to fix it.

If it was just this one situation, then the problem would lie with them, but if this is a common factor in your life no matter where you are, then there is something about yourself that you can change to fix the situation. If it has always happened, it always will until you make the right change.

Just talk to people... start with small talk... ask quetions and build on the answers they give, listen to what they have to say... ask more questions then you answer... etc...

You can change, if you want to, it will take time, but you can do whatever you put your mind to and are only limited by yourself.

God Bless,
ironmonk

[infinitelord1]

like i said...most harassment involves very subtle and indirect remarks. If you confront someone about those remarks they will deny even using it in that context. At first, I figured I would just blow it off and act like i wasnt offended by it. But things, over time, got out of hand. You must understand that because of the way they attack you its very hard to respond because they will act like they didnt mean it in that context. Why do they handle it like this? because they know what they mean by what they say, and it would be like ratting themselves out if they admitted to using it in this context. Do I have to repeat myself again?....ITS A MIND GAME. Its very hard to prove. they do it in a way to where they can get away with it. The only reason why i was able to make my complaint and show reason that is what they meant is because a few of them messed up....especially my room mate. He came into the room one day and said "someone told me they thought you was gay". And when I went to the club that one night and that soldier said "yeah he's gay". Oh and there was another incident where a guy said " that [my name] guy is a fag". Proof in my eyes lies within just a few comments like that. Other than that it was all a mind game. What am I supposed to say? "stop using those words around me because im offended by them"? there is no way in hell that I will be able to stop a whole battalion full of people from using the word fag etc. just so I know they arent aiming it at me.

One thing that someone wrote that I applaud was how I had to deal with this 24/7. I had to deal with this at work and at home. I allready told you about how I told my roommate not to call me a "fag" and he replied by saying "I was talking about the TV".

The way they handle this really left me with no way to respond. They put me in a situation were I couldnt prove that they were harassing me....or they tried to anyways. It was a matter of a few mistakes that a few individuals made that gave me the proof I needed.

To say that I shouldnt be here brings me back to the whole civil rights and equal opportunity thing. Everybody in this country has the right to be here. The army constantly goes out of its way to show they are an equal rights organization. But behind the scenes they dont act like it. If they dont want you here they will make it really uncomfortable to be here.

Edited September 9, 2007 by infinitelord1

[cmotherofpirl]

Not to be rude , but GROW UP. Every organization comes complete with a set of idiot bullies, its like an unwritten rule or something. There is always going to be someone in the background trying to make themselves look better by insulting someone else whether its because you look gay, or too fat or too white or too black or WHATEVER.
Military types pride themselves of their macho image and anything that sniffs of being different is an implied threat to every one of them. Stop whining. Reacting everytime you hear the term fag or gay and thinking someone is talking about you simply sets yourself up to be bullied. People use the term gay all the time and it is not always a reference to homosexuality, it also means something is just stupid. If you react badly to words, how are you gonna react when someone out there REALLY doesn't you [like the enemy] and starts shooting at you?
Prove yourself a GOOD soldier, demand respect for doing your job well, and then do it well and they will shut up. THats all any soldier really cares about in the end anyway.

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1381626' date='Sep 9 2007, 06:44 AM']Not to be rude , but GROW UP. Every organization comes complete with a set of idiot bullies, its like an unwritten rule or something. There is always going to be someone in the background trying to make themselves look better by insulting someone else whether its because you look gay, or too fat or too white or too black or WHATEVER.
Military types pride themselves of their macho image and anything that sniffs of being different is an implied threat to every one of them. Stop whining. Reacting everytime you hear the term fag or gay and thinking someone is talking about you simply sets yourself up to be bullied. People use the term gay all the time and it is not always a reference to homosexuality, it also means something is just stupid. If you react badly to words, how are you gonna react when someone out there REALLY doesn't you [like the enemy] and starts shooting at you?
Prove yourself a GOOD soldier, demand respect for doing your job well, and then do it well and they will shut up. THats all any soldier really cares about in the end anyway.[/quote]

Look I know that every organization has bullies in it. The truth is...they dont want gays in the military. Thats why i said that about the army.

Edited September 9, 2007 by infinitelord1

[Anomaly]

Why does the military have to have let gays in the military? Is being gay supposed to be accepted as morally okay? What about polygamists or white supremicists or people who are sexually attracted to children or an adult parent having sex with a willing adult son or daughter.? Is it okay for people to hold those beliefs as long as they don't marry more than once, don't actually break an anti-discrimination law, don't actually have sex with a minor, or don't actually have sex with a family member? Can't they be proponents and actively work towards changing the laws and demand to be accepted by everyone around them?

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1381646' date='Sep 9 2007, 09:23 AM']Why does the military have to have let gays in the military? Is being gay supposed to be accepted as morally okay? What about polygamists or white supremicists or people who are sexually attracted to children or an adult parent having sex with a willing adult son or daughter.? Is it okay for people to hold those beliefs as long as they don't marry more than once, don't actually break an anti-discrimination law, don't actually have sex with a minor, or don't actually have sex with a family member? Can't they be proponents and actively work towards changing the laws and demand to be accepted by everyone around them?[/quote]

You cant compare homosexual to these other people. You know why? because for the most part homosexuals can not really change there feelings. They do however have the option of acting on them or not. Just because you have same sex attractions doesnt mean your going to hell. Its acting on them that is bad. So why deny someone the right to serve their country because they have homosexual attractions? There is only one reason i can think of that would justify not letting homosexuals serve. And that would be because other members of the service would not treat them as a comrade...."I will never leave a fallen comrade"....that is a quote from the soldiers creed. Its obvious that the majority of people dont like gays....and it doesnt even matter if a person lives their life like that or not.

[infinitelord1]

lets us not forget equal opportunity

[Anomaly]

How is that different from someone who is sexually attracted to his sister? He can talk about it with others and expect others to accept it, just as long as he doesn't act on it?

[Semalsia]

[quote]You can't just "leave" the US Army, unless you do something what warrants a dishonorable discharge (or wait till your term is up).[/quote]

I just did some fast research on this (googling). There are number of ways to get a honorable discharge ([url="http://www.objector.org/girights/gettingout/discharges.html"]See here[/url]). Being openly gay is one of them.

Also, according to wikipedia 11,000 have been discharged from the military due to homosexuality since 1993. That's two per day.

I don't know much about the military, but it seems to me IL could leave if he wanted to. Especially if everyone is already pushing him out.