Harassment Of Homosexuals In The Military

[IcePrincessKRS]

[quote name='infinitelord1' post='1378057' date='Sep 4 2007, 07:06 PM']Cool!! Thanks for putting my thread back up!!! I would rather have had some of those names in there but oh well. I am not finished putting all the details in this thread i will keep you all posted.[/quote]

I know you would prefer names, but I'm thinking OPSEC may apply here. Even if it doesn't it can be a cause for scandal listing people by offense, name, rank, and location. Please keep those details out of any future posts on this subject.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='infinitelord1' post='1372320' date='Aug 28 2007, 10:52 AM']Well I am not sure why they said these things about me...but whenever people ask me if I want to go out and get some girls or whatever and I would not show interest...they would reply by saying things like "what you want some [derogatory word for "Penis"] or something?". They were persistant in asking me about this stuff.[/quote]
Bro,
I'm trying to understand your situation better... What do you reply? If you don't reply, then that could be a major cause of why you are targeted. Did you get this kind of treatment in high school? (no need to answer - just something to think about)

A good reply would be "I don't want a one night stand, I want a girlfriend. If they aren't worth marrying they are not worth getting." - something along those lines. And there is a chance that they are just joking and busting your chops.

I think you have gone way overboard with this. This is real life and something like this seems quite trivial when military might have to put their lives on the line... when military might see their best friends killed in front of them.

God Bless,
ironmonk

Edited September 7, 2007 by ironmonk

[ironmonk]

Oh, I need to add, at one point in my life my parents thought I had same sex attraction. When I was 18-19 I had body builder pics, bible verses and other quotes on my walls. I didn't date. They would constantly ask my sister if I was gay... My sister even had friends that asked if I was. When in HS there was one guy that called me fag all the time... I ignored him... I wish I said something but I didn't know what to say because I was shocked that he was saying it.

Point being, we have to learn to deal with social situations... military is not the typical office job (I know there are office jobs) but military people need to handle these type of situations themselves... if they can't handle these type of situations, then how can they handle war? These types of situations need to be handled at the peer level. This is a waste of time for senators and waste of taxpayer money. Towel parties are issues that a senator should address, name calling is not.


God Bless,
ironmonk

[dUSt]

This may seem really harsh, but I wouldn't say it unless I would give the same advice to myself, my brother, best friend or my own children. Stated three different ways for your viewing pleasure.

1. If you ain't dead, then get over it.
2. Who cares? Forget it and move on.
3. Take it as a loss and charge it to the game. (ghetto version)

[XIX]

[quote]My guess is that the guy(s) who would say something directly to you are the typical bullies. The others are guppies hoping that these jerks don't pick them out of the crowd. Bullies will see your quietness as different and different is a weakness... in most cases, the best way to deal with this type is to teach them a lesson in some way shape or form... For example, if someone called me a fag, my response would be to laugh and say "Sorry man, I like chicks so you're going to have to keep looking."[/quote]
I'm sorry, I have to interject here...thinking back to my days when I was picked on a lot, I would have been verbally slammed for saying something like that. They'd say "ohhhhhhhhhhhhh, tough guy! Oh nice comeback!"

[quote]"God Bless you brother, I'm not a fag... What church did you go to growing up?" - turn it into a theological debate and lay down some serious scripture reference and you'll show people that you don't have same sex attraction.... and you can always find a local girl to start dating.[/quote]
That might work a little better; people *might* respect you if they know there is something important to you.

[quote]By going to a senator, if ever you are in a situation, some of these guys are not going to have your back and might even try to cause you greater damage.[/quote]And this is a departure from the current situation how?

[quote]It'll take some time to turn things around... but you are going to have to have small talk with people, look at things you might have in common with them, talk about God stuff, a hobby, etc...[/quote]That might change things. I wouldn't bet on it. What people think of him is basically out of his control at this point.

[quote]You do have to be careful when dealing with this kind of situation... you could be framed for something or worse.[/quote]Maybe, but what is he supposed to do? From the sounds of it he is facing odds that are literally himself against everyone else. How do you propose he actually deals with this situation? It seems rather quixotic of you to suggest that he stick up for himself.

[quote]If bully types see that you will not stand up for yourself then you will be a target. We only have two cheeks... don't return evil for evil, but don't just sit there when you get insulted.[/quote]There really isn't anything you can do to stand up for yourself if it's anything more than three or four against one. You can try, God knows I tried everything under the sun to get some respect back in grade school, but anything I did just got laughed off. I mention myself as an example because I believe I am the rule here, not the exception.

[quote]The thing about being in the military is that military need to be able to handle things themselves... how can someone go to war if they cannot handle social situations.[/quote]
Is that your attitude? If it's not war then smell of elderberries it up and quit complaining? I'm sorry, I just can't buy that.
[quote]the kid that goes to the teacher to tell on the others will not be liked and will be teased. the kid that stands up against the bully will be respected. When I was a kid, there were two brothers that always beat me up... my parents really couldn't do anything about it... eventually, I hit back, they never bothered me again.[/quote]Good for you, but I think I should mention that wasn't my experience at all. There were times I tried to physically retaliate, and it didn't make anything better. Granted, part of this was due to the fact that I wasn't (and still am not) the kind of guy you would normally bet on to win a fight.

Regardless, I once witnessed another bully getting his knee torn up badly by a kid that was being picked on constantly. That didn't help the kid's credibility at all, even though it became common knowledge that he could hurt anyone who poked fun at him. The bullying only got worse.

As for whether "tattling" will stop anything, that really depends on how much the higher ups care. Most of my superiors seemed content to quip "Oh just ignore it" and leave me to the wolves. Most people really don't care. But there have been a few cases of people who actually did care enough to put an end to it. One in particular was a teacher--a woman, who, after being told [i]by my parents[/i] that people were bullying me for being the new kid in the Catholic school, she goes
"I'll put a stop to that."

Oh, she put a stop to it.

Why should I have had to attempt fighting off two people by myself? Who needs that? I understand that men should not be wimps, but let's get real here. Discretion is the better part of valor.

(Man, middle school sucked)

[XIX]

[quote]Maybe God was telling you to join the military... you have to learn to handle these type of situations. You joined the military, I might be missing some major aspects of what is going on, but if you joined the military and need to toughen up and handle your own situations.[/quote]
So that is it? He's in the military so he has no right to complain even if he is being harassed?

[quote]A "no harassment" policy would be nice, but in the military some people will need to kill in war... some people will see their friends killed... and they are going to need to be able to deal with some horrors of war and still function. In battle someone cannot go running to a teacher to tell, they are going to have to deal with whatever comes their way... some people in battle with them may lose it or have break downs... others are going to have to be able to deal with that.[/quote]
Being harassed makes it ten times more difficult to deal with other situations. It's hard enough to deal with something like death, but imagine trying to do that without any friends and plenty of enemies. You'd go nuts. Or at least I would.

[quote]The best thing you can do is confront the problem directly yourself... what this actually means is something that you will have to decide because we don't know the whole story. Going above the heads of your superiors and to a senator has shot yourself in the foot.[/quote]
You seem to know an awful lot about what he should do for a person who doesn't know the whole story.
[quote]But you can still recover from this by handling it from here out yourself (but you will have to be careful)... talk to people, talk about things you like to do - hobbies, buy an xbox and get something like Call of Duty 3 and play it... that could be a tool to connect to others in your group... but talk to everyone you can... they need to get to know you.[/quote]Again I'm not sure he he (or any human being) is truly capable of handling this situation himself. If he can handle it, then great. But who are you to determine whether that is even possible?


I'm sorry, I know this is a very harsh reply. I don't mean this as an attack or anything, but I couldn't let this post go without challenging it. It anything I said was wrong, then I pray that I am corrected. But nobody should be made to deal with bullies by themselves. If they can and they are able to ward them off somehow, more power to them. But normally, they can't. It's not that they won't stick up for themselves, it's that they can't. I've seen this happen to other people besides myself--people pick on people who, among other things, are half the size of themselves and their peers. Bullies are usually not stupid. They know who can't retaliate. They know who is defenseless. That's how bullies work--they never pick on anyone their own size.

Asking a kid to pick a fight with a bully twice his size seems counterintuitive to me. Asking the original poster to build friendships with people who will possibly become ostracized for being friends with him is equally counterintuitive. Maybe he isn't making the best decisions. But they are his decisions, and ironically, I should point out that he doesn't need you to make decisions for him. He knows what he is doing better than we do. As is such, I'll support whatever he decides to do.

[Justin86]

Now wait a minute. Here in Okinawa with the Navy I work with both Sailors and Marines who have girlfirends back in the States and they refuse to go to strip-clubs, look at porn, and sleep with hookers. Everyone, Sailor and Marine, understands its because they love their girlfriend. Nobody gets picked on for being "gay" for it.

When they first made these accusations did you immediately deny it, passionately explaining to them the Gospel of Jesus Christ, or did you just look down because they hurt you, which they interept as a guilty expression on your face? Sorry, but if Sailors and a bunch a dumb Marines can get that someone might be in love I'm pretty sure a bunch of Army boys can. My opinion: you more than likely have no one to blame for this situation but yourself.

Instead of cowering into a corner and writing your Congressmen/Sentors, try a little explaining. It often works.

Edited September 7, 2007 by Justin86

[thessalonian]

Ironmonk

I am afraid this is one of the rare times I disagree with you (and dust as well). For one very good reason. Those who are involved in this are sinning, grieviously. They are in fact breaking the law. Now I don't know the motivation for IL as to why he is going after these people. He needs to try and have detachment in this matter. But as some will recall, a couple of young men came in to my neighborhood this summer and threatened to shoot everyone on the block. A felony, terristic threat. Do I really think they will do it? No, but that is not the point. First of all they affected the lives of others (as the actions of those who are taunting IL are doing and it will affect those whom he comes in to contact with because he will not be the person God wants him to be) and also these guys will continue to think they can get away with it and will do the same to others. They are damaging and degrading the God given dignity of another human being. That should not be tolerated anywhere. But more importantly they are damaging their own souls. I didn't prosecute those two kids for myself or if I did that was a very small part of the motivation. I did it as much for them. People do not recieve consequence for their actions today and therefore do not reform. These guys need consequence and IL is in fact loving them in having them stand up before the law on that matter. I applaud him for that. They need to smell of elderberries it up when they face the music for their actions and REPENT! It iis for the salvation of THEIR SOULS that they need to have consequences, that their hard hearts may be softened.

Edited September 7, 2007 by thessalonian

[dUSt]

I disagree with XIX and thess. I guess we just grew up different.

Come to think of it, it may just be me. I solve every problem I come across myself, and it's always been that way. From fixing cars, to getting promotions, to learning web design, to installing new electric wiring in my house... I despise having somebody else do things that I can do myself. It just seems... inefficient .

I don't know if it's an acquired or a taught trait. I would guess taught, since my brother is the exact same way.

It's probably why I own a PC instead of a Mac. I actually enjoy figuring out why my computer keeps crashing. Maybe that's good. Maybe that's bad. I don't know. Different strokes for different folks I suppose.

Getting back on topic, it just seems to me that in this situation, infinitelord's stress would go away a lot quicker if he could simply put it out of his mind and move on rather than prolong the whole issue. To thess' point of the other people sinning--it's totally unrealistic to assume we have an obligation to help [b]them[/b] avoid sin or be repentive, because using the same rational, every hour of my day would be consumed with that obligation from the people I deal with on a day to day basis. I would think that at some point, his first priority should be his own spiritual well-being. How is he to help others if his own welfare is in shambles?

[infinitelord1]

ok so far there seems to be some controversy in regards to how i handled the situation. Some of you look at me as a coward for how i dealt with this. Well i cant really argue that.

When dealing with a situation like this...allegations are very hard to prove. In my situation, I have no friends or anybody who I can trust who would be willing to testify for me. I fear that because they sense my weakness...they are not willing to open up to me as well. I know I am a quiet person which also makes things more difficult. But for those who dont like the way i handle this...you must know this...you cant blame a victim for how he/she handles a situation...I felt that i should handle in the manner that i did to not only get the best results, but to send a message to people. These people need to realize that their careers may be at stake when they choose to attack people in ways like this. Dont blame the victim for what happens to them....blame them for putting their own careers on the line. Their intentions were not good and frankly I think they were trying to get me out of the military. I dont see this as a group of people who were trying to push me out....I see this as the army trying to push me out.

Let me ask you people this....have you ever been discriminated against? Have you ever been in an environment where everyone gives you dirty looks as you pass by and even discrimates against you by using verbal attacks? Its one thing when its just a few people, and another when its a mass of people. There is some truth to me being a coward. I havent always been very good at handling adversity. I will note however that i have stuck up for myself on occasions during my stay here in Korea. Not just with this issue, but with a few others.

You also have to understand that when it comes to an issue like this....its a huge mind game. They are never gonna admit that they used the word fag, qwerty, gay etc. in the context they are using it in when they harass someone. They will always try to make it look like common language. This is something that I went through with my old roommate. He would say "fag" as I would walk out the door and when i confronted him about it...he would give some bad excuse like "oh i was talking about what was on the TV" or whatever. Then he would continue to say the word and I know he was directing it at me. They are very indirect and subtle a lot of times. Like I said...its a huge mind game. Some others are more direct about it. But very very rarely will they confront you directly. It becomes a mind game that takes its toll over time. Its very hard to prove.

I also want to say that i have showed that someday I want to get married and have kids. I even asked a girl out on a date, I even danced with a girl in a club in front a group of my comrades....one of them said "yeah hes gay" while i was dancing with her (i happened to catch him saying it cuz i looked at him when he said it). Ive done things that have shown that I am not gay. The truth is, it doesnt matter what you do or say...a lot of times they find it to be comical when you show (by action or word) that you are not homosexual....they continue to believe that you are and you still continue to get harassed.
I would tell my old roommate that I wanted to get married one day and how i wanted to wait until marriage to have sex....he would still tell people, right in front of me, that i was a "homo". Its a huge mind game.

Ill be honest...it really pisses me off that you people would say stuff like "get over it" etc. You really have no idea what its like. It doesnt stop. Thats ok though....just continue on with your merry lives. Im not asking for any sympathy from you.

[infinitelord1]

Those who are willing to be friends with homosexuals get harassed as well....people start teasing them for being gay just because they are friends with a homosexual. One thing the military thrives off of is peer pressure....keep that in mind...oh wait i cant prove that either.

Edited September 8, 2007 by infinitelord1

[dUSt]

Sticks and stones may hurt my bones but words will never hurt me. I learned that as a child and I suppose it stuck. Ever heard this phrase? Ever try to live by it?

I'm not telling you to "get over it" because I think you're incapable of handling the situation, or because I think you're a coward. I'm telling you to "get over it" because, like I said, it's the same thing my dad use to tell me and the same thing I tell my kids when life deals them a blow. It's simply more productive to move forward instead of getting stuck in every one of life's traffic jams.

When someone tells you to get over it, just think of it as a shorter and more concise way of saying:

God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.

[ardillacid]

I bet if you just kicked someone's ass who was give3in gyou shinobi it would help. just my two cents.

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='dUSt' post='1380814' date='Sep 8 2007, 03:56 AM']Sticks and stones may hurt my bones but words will never hurt me. I learned that as a child and I suppose it stuck. Ever heard this phrase? Ever try to live by it?

I'm not telling you to "get over it" because I think you're incapable of handling the situation, or because I think you're a coward. I'm telling you to "get over it" because, like I said, it's the same thing my dad use to tell me and the same thing I tell my kids when life deals them a blow. It's simply more productive to move forward instead of getting stuck in every one of life's traffic jams.

When someone tells you to get over it, just think of it as a shorter and more concise way of saying:

God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.[/quote]

OK there is truth to what you say. But if this is how we are supposed to treat everything then how is there ever gonna be change? Lets go back 75 years....black people were treated very badly....not only were they called Ni**er but they were deprived of the many rights that white people had. If they simply had the mindset "oh well, ill just move on" then nothing would have changed. They would have continuously been called racial names, and been deprived of certain rights. Now lets look at how they handled their situation. They attacked politically. They gathered together and fought to make a difference. Over time things got better....im sure there are still struggles to this day, but it is getting better.

I look at my situation much like theirs. People did not want to teach me my job, they set me up for failure, they alienated me, they attacked me by calling me names, etc. If I just had the mind set that Sticks and Stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me then nothing would have changed. I had to do something about my situation. Maybe I do have a problem when it comes to what people think about me....maybe I am easily hurt by things. I am not gonna sit back and blame myself for these things. Its not me...Its them. They dont have to like me for whatever reason. They do have to respect me for who I am...and there is a law that also agrees with what I say. They were the ones who chose to break that law. I am simply upholding it.

It looks like what you are telling me is to take it. Im saying im not gonna take it anymore. Nobody should have to go through this. Sometimes I wish more people would experience what I am going through just so they know how it feels. You feel very powerless and it really beats you down.

To put things in a nutshell....there is something you can do about it....there are certain things you can change....and that was my goal by taking the action that I took. I realize I cant change what people think about me. But when it comes to this....I can change what they say around me.

[Dave]

[quote name='dUSt' post='1380814' date='Sep 8 2007, 04:56 AM']Sticks and stones may hurt my bones but words will never hurt me. I learned that as a child and I suppose it stuck. Ever heard this phrase? Ever try to live by it?

I'm not telling you to "get over it" because I think you're incapable of handling the situation, or because I think you're a coward. I'm telling you to "get over it" because, like I said, it's the same thing my dad use to tell me and the same thing I tell my kids when life deals them a blow. It's simply more productive to move forward instead of getting stuck in every one of life's traffic jams.

When someone tells you to get over it, just think of it as a shorter and more concise way of saying:

God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.[/quote]

Dust, that phrase "Stick and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me" is a lie. Words can hurt far worse than any physical blow. Also, I wish you could see how uncharitable it is to just tell people to "get over it." Who are you, or anyone else, to belittle anyone else's pain?

You know I love ya, bro, but you need to exercise a lot more compassion. Belittling the pain people go through (and yes, that's what you're doing regardless of how you attempt to justify it) will at best create a more difficult time for whoever you've said that to (because it may just make them feel like no one at all cares) and at worst cause you to lose friends. I speak from experience; I remember that time I posted on PM about how someone at my previous parish told malicious lies about me, and you said, "Who cares?" I guess I've never really forgiven you for that. I mean, this was a situation that, had it escalated, and the individual in question dreamed up worse lies to tell about me, could've resulted at best in my reputation being destroyed and at worst in being arrested (and perhaps sent to prison) for something I didn't do. Would you still have told me to "get over it" if you'd known about that?

Edited September 8, 2007 by Dave