Why Is Doubt Considered A Good Thing In The Catholic Church

["Kyrie eleison"]

QUOTE
Paul knew exactly the VALUE of SUFFERING for the sake of the BODY of CHRIST.


[quote]Sure...

Paul got beaten for preaching. He got Gods Word out to the world.[/quote]

As was pointed out, Paul states that [b]HE CHASTISES HIS BODY,[/b] this has nothing to do with someone else beating him.

QUOTE
Paul wrote: "I chastise my body and bring it into subjection: lest perhaps when I have preached to others I myself should be castaway" (I Cor. 9:27).

There is no confusion here and Paul SUBJECTED and[b] CHASTISED HIS BODY [/b]for what was LACKING in the BODY of CHRIST. In his FLESH


[quote]Paul did not beat himself or put rocks in his shoes like Catholic monks.[/quote]

Again, scripture states that Paul [b]CHASTISED[/b] his [b]BODY[/b] and brings it to[b] SUBJECTION.[/b]

Shall we look up the meaning of CHASTISE...

American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source chas·tise (chās-tīz', chās'tīz') Pronunciation Key
tr.v. chas·tised, chas·tis·ing, chas·tis·es

To punish, as by beating. See Synonyms at punish.
To criticize severely; rebuke.
Archaic To purify.

QUOTE
If you wish to be perfect, sell everything.(Matt.19:21)

24 Then Jesus told his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. (Matt.16:24)

How does Budge, deny thyself?? The sister of Charity are following the words of Jesus.


[quote]Have you sold everything?

After all if you are going to apply this to me, you need to apply it to yourself.[/quote]

I have not sold everything and I don't expect you too, although, I do deny myself during the Lenten season. Abstaining from chocolate, from meat (fasting) and other things that I find pleasurable, which is biblical (fasting).

[quote]When Mother Teresa had her nuns get rid of perfectly good curtains and rugs and blankets, and when Opus Dei members beat themselves with ropes or wear the pointy chain on their thighs, they DO NOTHING for OTHERS. Their suffering or lets say self-masochism in many cases causes suffering for others.

By the way I do not live the typical American lifestyle, I have talked about this before. But even then I have what Gods gives me and where God wants me to be. If He wants me to sell something or give it away, I do it.[/quote]

I have not read about the lifestyle that you lead, but many chose to live a simple life or even impoverished; just as certain orders of nuns and monks and it is their CHOICE just as the DISCIPLES who 'chose' to GIVE UP EVERYTHING.

It is a CHOICE.

QUOTE
There is no grace that comes to any human that was not merited by Jesus at the CROSS.


[quote]Catholicism abuses the very word GRACE.[/quote]

Au contraire... the OSAS doctrine is an abuse of God's grace.

[quote]While I see Gods grace as freely given via His Love, Catholics see grace as something to be EARNED via good behavior, rituals and rites. Grace for a Christian is resting in His Love and knowing God loved us enough to die for our sins. It is being secure knowing you are in His Hand.[/quote]

Grace comes freely to as Jesus merited for us at the cross, but Catholics believe it can be LOST if we do not remain steadfast and endure till the end in his GOODNESS.

On the contrary, the belief of OSAS, do anything you want and you will still be in the GRACE of GOD.
Kill, murder and maim and you will always be in good standing with GOD, is where the abuse is taking place.

[quote]We are saved by grace through faith, not by faith, as in the parable of the lost son, God the Father responds to our belief and repentance by embracing us and granting us forgiveness by His grace alone when we deserve nothing but condemnation.

Grace for a Catholic is indulgences, Masses, suffering in Purgatory, and hoping one is "good" enough for God to let them into heaven. it is being insecure, awaiting death knowing you will suffer a "burning fire" beyond all the pains of earth, it is total insecurity.[/quote]

Jesus Christ Himself said, "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven;[b] but [/b]he who does the will of My Father in Heaven shall enter the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 7:21.

Jesus Christ in Matthew 7:21, [b]has spoken to all of us[/b], and He clearly stated that[b] we have to do the will of the Father[/b].

Doing something requires effort, or work. Does this sound like "Once saved, always saved to you?" Not to me... you must ENDURE till the END. Jesus Christ redeemed us and provided for our salvation at the CROSS, but that doesn't mean that we can just stroll into the pearly gates.

If we co-operate with the commands of GOD, we have the FULLNESS of hope that we will be saved. However, we do not ASSUME, that it is a completed by Jesus Christ alone.

Jesus did His part, now it is up to each one of us to do our part.

"Once saved, always saved" is contradictory when Holy Scripture clearly tells us to, "[b]Work[/b] out your salvation with fear and trembling."? Phil 2:12

[quote]Here too, Catholicism ignores the direct teachings of Paul:

Romans 11:6 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.[/quote]

You are the one BUDGE who will not ACKNOWLEDGE that [b]WORKS[/b] will be a FACTOR.

"But he who has looked carefully into the perfect law of liberty and has remained in it,[b] not becoming a forgetful hearer[/b][b] but a DOER of the WORK[/b], shall be blessed in his deed." Jam 1:25


QUOTE
Budge, fundamentalism denies REDEMPTIVE SUFFERING to their OWN DETRIMENT. Jesus willed that the mystery of His PASSION and SUFFERING continue on in us for the GOOD of THE BODY of CHRIST.


[quote]This is totally wrong.

Jesus died on the cross, because HE LOVED US, He wanted to spare His children the eternity of HELL and being lost to Him.

We are not needed to "finish" the job for HIm. He is ressurrected, He has achieved victory over sin and death.

Romans 6:10
For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

By God's grace alone means by God's grace alone, no "ifs," "ands," or "buts." or ALSO's.....[/quote]

Oh really... no "ifs," "ands," or "buts."

Rom 11:22, "See, then, the goodness and the severity of GOD: His severity towards those who have fallen, [b]but [/b]the goodness of GOD towards you [b]if [/b]you abide in His goodness;[b] otherwise [/b]you also will be cut off."


[quote]Philippians 3:8-9 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)


8Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

9And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:[/quote]

"Therefore, brethren,[b] strive even more by good works to make your calling and election sure.[/b] For if you do this, you will not fall into sin at any time. Indeed, in this way will be amply provided for you the entrance into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ." 2Pet 1:10-11

"For all of us must be made manifest before the tribunal of Christ, so that each one may receive what he has won through the body, [b]according to his works, whether good or evil."[/b]
2Cor 5:10

You cannot continue to put the IGNORE button on scripture verses that proclaim that works will be a factor in our salvation.

We are not saved by faith alone, but by Jesus free gift of his grace working through us and our love through our good works.

Edited August 30, 2007 by "Kyrie eleison"

[thessalonian]

Paul says "the good that I would do I do not, while the evil that I would not do I do." He speaks about the warring of the flesh against the spirit and buffeting his body. Sounds like he went through some of the same struggles that Mother T. did.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='"Kyrie eleison' post='1373461' date='Aug 29 2007, 11:35 AM']St. Paul was so filled with the idea of the redemptive power of SUFFERING that he exclaimed: "I find joy in the sufferings I endure for you. In my own flesh I fill up what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ for the sake of His Body, the Church" (Col. 1:24).

I have asked Protesants what this verse means to them or how is it interpreted and they have no clue and scratch their heads.

In the OT, this form of redemptive suffering was practiced “I wore sackcloth; I afflicted myself with fasting.” Ps. 34:13

As in the NT, Jesus speaks of this...“sackcloth and ashes.” “The day will come when the bridegroom will be taken from them, and then they’ll fast”

(Matthew 9:15); “Because if the mighty works that happened in you had taken place in Tyre and Sidon, [b]they would have REPENTED in SACK CLOTH and ASHES long ago.” [/b](Matthew 11:21)

You do know what sackcloth is? A coarse uncomfortable cloth. The sackcloth is now called the cilice.

St. Paul writes, “we always bear the death of Jesus in our bodies so the life of Jesus may also be revealed in our bodies.” (2 Cor. 4:10)

The Latin word translated here as “death” is, in fact, “mortificationem”

The Latin text reads “semper mortificationem Iesu in corpore circumferentes” – meaning COPORAL MORTIFICATION. There is passive mortification, active mortification, and interior.

The Sisters of the Charity…as well as Mother Teresa use the cilice and discipline.

Many pastors preach of NO SUFFERING and only the PROSPERITY GOSPEL.

Fundamentalist have no CLUE about REDEMPTIVE SUFFERING, Budge, for you are only sipping on MILK. You have not reached the mature age to receive SOLID FOOD in the WORD of GOD.
Heb 5
11] About this we have much to say which is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing.
[12] For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need some one to teach you again the first principles of God's word. You need milk, not solid food;
[[b]13] for every one who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a child.
[14] But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their faculties trained by practice to distinguish good from evil. [/b]
Budge when will you get to the SOLID FOOD????[/quote]

First, isn't a cilice not just a piece of uncomfortable cloth, but rather a wire?

Second, be careful. Your post only gives credibility to Budge's assertion that Catholics go out looking for suffering and may have undone efforts of many of the veterans of this board to show her otherwise.

[Budge]

Norse many Catholics do go out looking for suffering, not Catholics in America so much but definitely in the third world and eslewhere. Catholicism is a bit Protestantized down playing some of its worse aspects in America.

Look Norse Catholics think they can earn Gods favor using those clices, this other poster Kryie, seems to think that Paul chastised his body HIMSELF instead of risking himself for the gospel, he had enough others to throw stones at him, jail him and beat him, why help them out? That is just masochism. Fasting is different allowing a person to focus on God and prayer but not something like damaging knees or beating ones self or in the Phillipines some who take it to the extreme actually have themselves nailed to crosses.

Im sorry this is the domain of those who think they can SUFFER into their own salvation.

As one poster on my board said: he has a way of summing up things very succinctly....[quote]

[b]
The Catholic Church denies that Jesus' sacrifice on Calvary was wholly, perfectly, and eternally sufficient for salvation.

Believing in works is much easier than throwing oneself totally on the mercy of God..

That has always been a big appeal of RCism: such pomp, acts of piety, self sacrifice, suffering, works and following the Law surely has to earn one Heaven.[[/b]/quote]

Bloody knees do not please God...

[img]http://www.portugal-ferien.net/Fatima_2a.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.corazones.org/lugares/italia/roma/scala_santa/zscala_santa.jpg[/img]

Cellulitis does not please God....

[img]http://www.futureofthebook.org/mitchellstephens/archives/cilice.jpg[/img]

Neither does whipping your back....


[img]http://www.odan.org/images/discipline_2004.jpg[/img]

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote]Kryie, seems to think that Paul chastised his body HIMSELF instead of risking himself for the gospel, he had enough others to throw stones at him, jail him and beat him, why help them out? That is just masochism.[/quote]


QUOTE
Paul wrote: "[b]I [/b]chastise my body and bring it into subjection: lest perhaps when I have preached to others I myself should be castaway" (I Cor. 9:27).

Budge,
Does Paul state that he, she, it or him, chastises his body? Who does the CHASTISING to whom, in Corinthians?

[Mateo el Feo]

Maybe it would be better if St. Paul "down played" his Christianity and became more protestant for Budge. Alas, American protestantism is quite a contrast from Biblical Christianity...

[Socrates]

Okay, once more, since Budge is apparently slow pretty slow on the uptake, I Cor. 9:27:[quote][b]I CHASTISE my body[/b] and bring it into subjection: lest perhaps when I have preached to others I myself should be castaway.[/quote]
Paul says that HE HIMSELF chastises HIS body, not that others chastise his body.

Budge, what part of "I chastise my body" do you not understand?

The point of chastisement of one's body is to [b]bring it into subjection[/b], in other words, to remind it who'se boss by denying it physical comfort.

That's the point of the cilia, etc., just a discipline to subject the body, and remind us of Christ's sufferings, and Opus Dei's founder says this discipline is to be done lightly - they don't beat themselves to a bloody pulp - that's hollywood nonsense. Heck, I put myself through more pain in a typical day's workout.

Christ Himself fasted in the desert for forty days and forty nights.
That has to do far more punishment to the body than any of the chastisements you've mentioned. Ask any doctor!
And the fasting in biblical times was serious stuff - it wasn't just forgoing the jelly donuts!

Likewise, the sack-cloth mentioned in the Bible, worn as a sign of repentence - it was very scratchy, uncomfortable stuff, irritating to the skin.

But hey, it's good that we now have Budge, to tell us exactly what does and doesn't please God.

[Budge]

Ok go beat yourself Socrates if you think it will make "god" love you more.

Take a few cold showers, sleep on a board and wear a hair shirt.

Maybe you can take it all the way and go Hindu and sleep on a board of nails.

Your choice.

St. Paul while he may have done Biblical fasting, something that is different from beating the tar out of one self and to be done with smile on ones face instead of sackclothe and ashses did not beat himself or believe he had to do these works to earn salvation.
[quote]That's the point of the cilia, etc., just a discipline to subject the body, and remind us of Christ's sufferings, and Opus Dei's founder says this discipline is to be done lightly - they don't beat themselves to a bloody pulp - that's hollywood nonsense. Heck, I put myself through more pain in a typical day's workout.[/quote]

Oh so a light beating is good, a bruise and bloody one not?

Ok that makes about as much sense as the rest of your posts.

There are witnesses who say that Escivera beat himself bloody even if he did not force his followers to go that far.

You very well might worship a "god" that loves to see you suffer for sufferings sake rather then any true prayer--fasting, chastisement, for the sake of the gospel...

As I have said before, as a child I realized the Catholic "god" was an ogre. Youre not doing much to supress that view but doing more to back it up.

[Mateo el Feo]

As so often is the case, more willful ignorance from Budge.

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote name='Budge' post='1375554' date='Sep 1 2007, 11:32 AM']Ok go beat yourself Socrates if you think it will make "god" love you more.

Take a few cold showers, sleep on a board and wear a hair shirt.

Maybe you can take it all the way and go Hindu and sleep on a board of nails.

Your choice.

St. Paul while he may have done Biblical fasting, something that is different from beating the tar out of one self and to be done with smile on ones face instead of sackclothe and ashses did not beat himself or believe he had to do these works to earn salvation.
Oh so a light beating is good, a bruise and bloody one not?

Ok that makes about as much sense as the rest of your posts.

There are witnesses who say that Escivera beat himself bloody even if he did not force his followers to go that far.

You very well might worship a "god" that loves to see you suffer for sufferings sake rather then any true prayer--fasting, chastisement, for the sake of the gospel...

As I have said before, as a child I realized the Catholic "god" was an ogre. Youre not doing much to supress that view but doing more to back it up.[/quote]


Budge,

Those who FEED on the MEAT of the WORD of GOD, much is EXPECTED of THEM.

Luke 12:48
48 But someone who does not know, and then does something wrong, will be punished only lightly. [b]When someone has been given much, much will be required in return; AND WHEN SOMEONE HAS BEEN ENTRUSTED WITH MUCH, EVEN MORE WILL BE REQUIRED. [/b]

Hebrews 5
[b]13Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, IS NOT acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. [/b]
[b]14But solid food is for the mature[/b], who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.

Those who are SIPPING on MILK are [b]not[/b] MATURE and UNABLE to COMPRENEND nor GRASP the MEAT of the WORD of GOD; hence we don't expect this to MAKE SENSE to YOU.

Edited September 1, 2007 by "Kyrie eleison"

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1375554' date='Sep 1 2007, 11:32 AM']As I have said before, as a child I realized the Catholic "god" was an ogre.[/quote]

Then you never did know the Catholic God.

Our God wants us to win the war against the devil. Christ already beat Him, but we have to accept that victory. Christ bids us to heaven, the devil bids us to hell. The devil tempts us and tries to bribe us. Christ does not. Christ offers Himself. We must choose whether we will follow after lies and sinful pleasures or follow after Christ. Despite our knowledge that Christ is of surpassing value, it is hard for us to choose Him, because we are stubborn and seek our own will. So we start slowly, by choosing not to entertain the evil desires, then by fighting them, even to the point of blood, as St. Paul did, and if that means fasting, if that means penance, all to keep us from choosing the devil and his ways, then it is worth it, because Jesus Christ is of far greater value than all the empty promises of the devil. So pardon us, Budge, if we are too busy engaging the devil, too busy fleeing to Christ by choosing to starve our greedy appetites, but it is for love of Him. Just as an adulteress must give up her other men, and when they come looking for her, must confront them and tell them no, must take abuse, verbal, perhaps even physical, from them, and suffer, all because she wishes to return to her rightful husband...just as that adulteress suffers willingly for her love, so we suffer willingly for ours.

It's written all over our hearts; it's written all over the Bible. It's what we're supposed to do. It's the only way to win the battle.

God bless,

Micah

[Socrates]

[quote name='Budge' post='1375554' date='Sep 1 2007, 10:32 AM']Ok go beat yourself Socrates if you think it will make "god" love you more.

Take a few cold showers, sleep on a board and wear a hair shirt.

Maybe you can take it all the way and go Hindu and sleep on a board of nails.

Your choice.

St. Paul while he may have done Biblical fasting, something that is different from beating the tar out of one self and to be done with smile on ones face instead of sackclothe and ashses did not beat himself or believe he had to do these works to earn salvation.
Oh so a light beating is good, a bruise and bloody one not?

Ok that makes about as much sense as the rest of your posts.

There are witnesses who say that Escivera beat himself bloody even if he did not force his followers to go that far.

You very well might worship a "god" that loves to see you suffer for sufferings sake rather then any true prayer--fasting, chastisement, for the sake of the gospel...

As I have said before, as a child I realized the Catholic "god" was an ogre. Youre not doing much to supress that view but doing more to back it up.[/quote]
No one says these disciplines cause God to love us more, or themselves earn us salvation.

St. Paul does not say what exactly he did to chastise his flesh, but the fact is that he did chastise his own flesh. Thus, your saying that chastisements of the flesh are displeasing to God is shown to be nonsense.

They are simply a discipline that can help keep some focused on God, rather than falling into fleshly temptations and comforts.

As I've pointed out, Christ Himself fasted in the desert for forty days, and said that a time would come for fasting.

You have yet to explain why light beatings and such are so displeasing to Our Lord, while denying the body needed nourishment to the point of near starvation is not.
It is your postings that make no sense.

[Dismas]

Imagine if you will, a 30 year old guy, who stands 6' 0", weighs 260 lbs, and hasn't worked out in well over a decade. He also loves fatty food, sugar, caffeine and beer. The funny thing is, that after stumbling upon some resolve, he decides to work out.

The first day, he goes on the treadmill for a half hour and drags himself to the shower, and passes out at home, exhausted.

The second day, he wakes up pretty fresh, and decides to lift weights. Now he goes through this rather systematically, and works most of his muscle groups. He's sore, but he tries to spend another half hour on the bicycle. He drags his sore and exhausted body home, and goes to bed.

The third day, he gasps in pain upon waking up. He stumbles over to get some Advil, then notices he feels cramped up and weak. Today he decides that stretching is in order. Now stretching is uncomfortable on the best of days, but the morning after lifting weights, it's excruciating.

On the fourth day, he goes back on the treadmill, and pushes himself for 45 minutes of interval running. Still pushing, he spends a few minutes on the punching bag, then goes back to stretching.

On the fifth day, you guessed it, he goes back to weights. He doesn't stop until nearly every muscle is twitching and sore.

This continues, now consider his shape after a few months of this sort of routine. Sure, it's really hard to start up, and the pain usually makes most people quit before a month is out. For those who keep going, however, the results pay off. Sure, that guy could have lived a healthy life with a decent span, but the quality of life he leads by putting himself through all that exercise is so much better.

Some people don't get fasting and mortification, of course, there are people who don't get exercising either.

Edited September 2, 2007 by Dismas

[Dismas]

Is doubt considered a good thing in the Catholic Church? No.

Doubt is a physical evil, but not a moral one, unless we choose doubt.

Fear is like doubt, and it isn't morally evil to have fear. Choosing fear is morally evil, and it's called cowardice. Choosing against fear is a moral good, and it is called courage.

Having doubt, and choosing against it is called Faith.

Just like Love isn't some soft fuzzy feeling, that once it goes away, well, a couple might as well break up or divorce, Faith isn't a feeling either. Just as Love is a continuous choice, even when the honeymoon is over, Faith is a choice, and when it is chosen it has power.

Yes, Mother Theresa wrestled with doubts far darker than any of us, even Budge, has. That she chose God even in that darkness gave great power to her ministry.

As for Budge, since you are a true Christian witnessing to us Catholic "heathens", go to some forsaken hellhole of a city like Calcutta, with only 10 cents and the clothes on your back to your name, and you show us how much better a true Christian can manage.

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1375932' date='Sep 1 2007, 09:03 PM']Then you never did know the Catholic God.

Our God wants us to win the war against the devil. Christ already beat Him, but we have to accept that victory. Christ bids us to heaven, the devil bids us to hell. The devil tempts us and tries to bribe us. Christ does not. Christ offers Himself. We must choose whether we will follow after lies and sinful pleasures or follow after Christ. Despite our knowledge that Christ is of surpassing value, it is hard for us to choose Him, because we are stubborn and seek our own will. So we start slowly, by choosing not to entertain the evil desires, then by fighting them, even to the point of blood, as St. Paul did, and if that means fasting, if that means penance, all to keep us from choosing the devil and his ways, then it is worth it, because Jesus Christ is of far greater value than all the empty promises of the devil. So pardon us, Budge, if we are too busy engaging the devil, too busy fleeing to Christ by choosing to starve our greedy appetites, but it is for love of Him. Just as an adulteress must give up her other men, and when they come looking for her, must confront them and tell them no, must take abuse, verbal, perhaps even physical, from them, and suffer, all because she wishes to return to her rightful husband...just as that adulteress suffers willingly for her love, so we suffer willingly for ours.

It's written all over our hearts; it's written all over the Bible. It's what we're supposed to do. It's the only way to win the battle.

God bless,

Micah[/quote]
Amen, brotha.