Why Is Doubt Considered A Good Thing In The Catholic Church

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote]Ive had tribulation like many others, I will not go into detail here. But lets just say, I am not a young Catholic who romanticizes suffering, out of never having been there.

and that is one false thing about your religion, that says suffering is good and then even praises a woman living in despair for years, because she was given a false gospel.[/quote]

St. Paul was so filled with the idea of the redemptive power of SUFFERING that he exclaimed: "I find joy in the sufferings I endure for you. In my own flesh I fill up what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ for the sake of His Body, the Church" (Col. 1:24).

I have asked Protesants what this verse means to them or how is it interpreted and they have no clue and scratch their heads.

In the OT, this form of redemptive suffering was practiced “I wore sackcloth; I afflicted myself with fasting.” Ps. 34:13

As in the NT, Jesus speaks of this...“sackcloth and ashes.” “The day will come when the bridegroom will be taken from them, and then they’ll fast”

(Matthew 9:15); “Because if the mighty works that happened in you had taken place in Tyre and Sidon, [b]they would have REPENTED in SACK CLOTH and ASHES long ago.” [/b](Matthew 11:21)

You do know what sackcloth is? A coarse uncomfortable cloth. The sackcloth is now called the cilice.

St. Paul writes, “we always bear the death of Jesus in our bodies so the life of Jesus may also be revealed in our bodies.” (2 Cor. 4:10)

The Latin word translated here as “death” is, in fact, “mortificationem”

The Latin text reads “semper mortificationem Iesu in corpore circumferentes” – meaning COPORAL MORTIFICATION. There is passive mortification, active mortification, and interior.

The Sisters of the Charity…as well as Mother Teresa use the cilice and discipline.

Many pastors preach of NO SUFFERING and only the PROSPERITY GOSPEL.

Fundamentalist have no CLUE about REDEMPTIVE SUFFERING, Budge, for you are only sipping on MILK. You have not reached the mature age to receive SOLID FOOD in the WORD of GOD.



Heb 5
11] About this we have much to say which is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing.
[12] For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need some one to teach you again the first principles of God's word. You need milk, not solid food;
[[b]13] for every one who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a child.
[14] But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their faculties trained by practice to distinguish good from evil. [/b]

[quote]I feel sorry for MOther Teresa. If I had met her I would have had a serious chat with her, and told her YOU DO NOT HAVE TO WORK YOUR WAY TO HEAVEN.[/quote]

Budge when will you get to the SOLID FOOD????

Edited August 29, 2007 by "Kyrie eleison"

[Kirisutodo333]

[quote name='Budge' post='1373397' date='Aug 29 2007, 11:16 AM']That poem Im sorry has nothing to do with Christianity and everything to do with teaching folks to LOOK TO THEIR SELVES instead of the will of God.
This basically says LOOK TO SELF>

The Bible says the heart is a deceitful thing, your poem says otherwise.
[b]Night is more lovely then the dawn?[/b]

Luk 11:35 Take heed therefore that the light which is in thee be not darkness.

[u]
Ive had tribulation like many others, I will not go into detail here. But lets just say, I am not a young Catholic who romanticizes suffering, out of never having been there.[/u]

and that is one false thing about your religion, that says suffering is good and then even praises a woman living in despair for years, because she was given a false gospel.

I feel sorry for MOther Teresa. If I had met her I would have had a serious chat with her, and told her YOU DO NOT HAVE TO WORK YOUR WAY TO HEAVEN.[/quote]

[quote]That poem Im sorry has nothing to do with Christianity and everything to do with teaching folks to LOOK TO THEIR SELVES instead of the will of God.
This basically says LOOK TO SELF[/quote]

Faith has A LOT to do with the self, with the grace and self-communication of God bestowed upon us by God in our hearts. God is in our hearts. Do you not have God in your heart? How can you harbor God in your heart if it's deceitful? Faith has to be grasped with the objective and the subjective together, not either/or but both. That is where you fail. Spirituality is harvested in the subjective and is guided and come to fruition in the objective.

[quote][b]Night is more lovely then the dawn?[/b]

Luk 11:35 Take heed therefore that the light which is in thee be not darkness.[/quote]

Well, this was my fault. I thought you had more of a capacity to interpret certain things (you are protestant after all). Night is more lovely than the dawn? It means, through his desparation, his reward of becoming one with God spiritually was worth it. But he ends up in the light, which is God. What he is saying is in the suffering and desperation, in the pain and despair, in our rubbled-over hearts, we meet God. But you wouldn't know anything about that would you? Christianity is just a quick cure for you. I'm saved! I'm saved! We'll see...

[quote][u]
Ive had tribulation like many others, I will not go into detail here. But lets just say, I am not a young Catholic who romanticizes suffering, out of never having been there.[/u]

and that is one false thing about your religion, that says suffering is good and then even praises a woman living in despair for years, because she was given a false gospel.[/quote]

Our religion...yes, finally you get something right! Christianity is our religion. I'm going to say it again...Christianity is our religion...yes. Ah, anyway...the Paschal Mystery is the one of the most important foundations of Christianity. It involves suffering. When one one says we must be like Christ, why do protestants think it's only the rosy, peachy good things that they must experience? Suffering is good when it brings people to God (just like the poem emulates).

[quote]because she was given a false gospel[/quote]

That "gospel" is the same gospel given to protestants by the Catholic Church.

Edited August 29, 2007 by Kirisutodo333

[Norseman82]

Budge,

First, I can probably fling back at you some bible verses referring to God's love as a fire burning within our hearts.

Second, although I've never read through St. John of the Cross' entire work, the synopses I've read on the subject of spiritual dryness is that it is designed to purge us of attachments to worldly things. And you know what? In Mother Theresa's case, it appears to have worked, because in any statement I've read of hers regarding her work, she always pointed back to God, correct?

[Budge]

[quote]St. Paul was so filled with the idea of the redemptive power of SUFFERING that he exclaimed: "I find joy in the sufferings I endure for you. In my own flesh I fill up what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ for the sake of His Body, the Church" (Col. 1:24).[/quote]

This is sufferings like martyrship, persecution and mroe. Paul was beaten and jailed and he endured those things for Christ. This does not mean Paul earned any of his own salvation or justification via his sufferings. That is where Catholics totally confuse things.

The Catholic Church teaches its people that suffering for suffering's sake is good, and that is totally wrong. That is based in self-pride "I will beat myself and wear a "cilice" and via this earn my way into heaven. Im sorry but beating yourself, going on ones knees up stairs, and letting flies bite you without brushing them off as one saint did, are things Satan wants people to do. This has nothing to do with suffering for the gospel's sake but self-pride in believing one's own suffering and "goodness" will save them.

Mother Teresa's cult of suffering beliefs even hurt those around her, as she expect others to suffer, like her including nuns and even thought the immense suffering of the dying beggars, earned them salvation. Thats why she stripped out that NYC townhouse of all the things that would have given a quality life to folks! and expected everyone to live in misery around her. Her pride and self glory in believing that her own salvation and works would save her, led to this. Telling some poor beggar..."“You are suffering like Christ on the cross. So Jesus must be kissing you.” {Missionary Position pg 41} showed the twisted effect of these beliefs. That definitely had to make that beggar think "jesus" hate him. But while the false jesus of the Sisters of Charity led them to baptize these beggars without them always knowing about it, no one bothered to witness the gospel, and Mother Teresa taught her universalism to the world at large with her talk of "better Hindus"


As for having the prosperity gospel stuff thrown at me, that is nonsense, as I speak out against the Word of Faith movement, false apostate Joel Osteen Christianity and everything related to this.

There is no such thing as REDEMPTIVE SUFFERING. I am NOT spotless and neither are you. Jesus Christ is. While God can allow a person to suffer in life for santification--tribulations etc, chastisement or suffering can come about from witnessing the gospel....{For what I preach here there are people DYING elsewhere in the world}...Again Catholics mix up sanctification and justification here to their own detriment. If you think youre own suffering justifies you or is redemptive you are basically saying what Jesus Christ did on the cross was not good enough for you.

[Winchester]

I should point out that if our own actions have nothing to do with entering Heaven, then everyone goes to Heaven.

The idea that our decisions have no effect on our personal salvation (personal suffering cannot be redemptive) has led to several theological errors.

Nowhere does Catholic Doctrine imply Jesus's sacrifice on the Cross wasn't "good enough." It was neccesary for our salvation. There is a word all would do well to learn, and that word is:


"also."

Jesus had to die for our sins to save us. We must also follow Him. We have to participate to go to Heaven. If His sacrifice was all that was necessary, then we could do whatever we wanted and still go to Heaven.

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote]Budge' date='Aug 29 2007, 12:43 PM' post='1373502']
This is sufferings like martyrship, persecution and mroe. Paul was beaten and jailed and he endured those things for Christ. This does not mean Paul earned any of his own salvation or justification via his sufferings. That is where Catholics totally confuse things.[/quote]

Paul knew exactly the VALUE of SUFFERING for the sake of the BODY of CHRIST.

Paul wrote: "I [b]chastise[/b] my body and bring it into subjection: lest perhaps when I have preached to others I myself should be castaway" (I Cor. 9:27).

There is no confusion here and Paul SUBJECTED and CHASTISED HIS BODY for what was [b]LACKING [/b]in the BODY of CHRIST. In his FLESH

"In my[b] flesh [/b]I complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions,[b] for the sake of his body[/b], that is the Church." (Col 1:24)

[quote]The Catholic Church teaches its people that suffering for suffering's sake is good, and that is totally wrong. That is based in self-pride "I will beat myself and wear a "cilice" and via this earn my way into heaven. Im sorry but beating yourself, going on ones knees up stairs, and letting flies bite you without brushing them off as one saint did, are things Satan wants people to do. This has nothing to do with suffering for the gospel's sake but self-pride in believing one's own suffering and "goodness" will save them.

Mother Teresa's cult of suffering beliefs even hurt those around her, as she expect others to suffer, like her including nuns and even thought the immense suffering of the dying beggars, earned them salvation. Thats why she stripped out that NYC townhouse of all the things that would have given a quality life to folks! and expected everyone to live in misery around her. Her pride and self glory in believing that her own salvation and works would save her, led to this. Telling some poor beggar..."“You are suffering like Christ on the cross. So Jesus must be kissing you.” {Missionary Position pg 41} showed the twisted effect of these beliefs. That definitely had to make that beggar think "jesus" hate him. But while the false jesus of the Sisters of Charity led them to baptize these beggars without them always knowing about it, no one bothered to witness the gospel, and Mother Teresa taught her universalism to the world at large with her talk of "better Hindus"
As for having the prosperity gospel stuff thrown at me, that is nonsense, as I speak out against the Word of Faith movement, false apostate Joel Osteen Christianity and everything related to this.[/quote]

What the Catholic Church and the saints that have gone before us has concerning SUFFERING is RIGHT ON.

Do you deny the words of Jesus, Budge????

If you wish to be perfect, sell everything.(Matt.19:21)

24 Then Jesus told his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, [b]let him deny himself [/b]and take up his cross and follow me. (Matt.16:24)

How does Budge, deny thyself?? The sister of Charity are following the words of Jesus.

To the disciples that Jesus called to follow him, he told them to leave [b]EVERYTHING BEHIND.[/b]



[quote]There is no such thing as REDEMPTIVE SUFFERING. I am NOT spotless and neither are you. Jesus Christ is. While God can allow a person to suffer in life for santification--tribulations etc, chastisement or suffering can come about from witnessing the gospel....{For what I preach here there are people DYING elsewhere in the world}...Again Catholics mix up sanctification and justification here to their own detriment. If you think youre own suffering justifies you or is redemptive you are basically saying what Jesus Christ did on the cross was not good enough for you.[/quote]

There is no grace that comes to any human that was not merited by Jesus at the CROSS.

Budge, fundamentalism denies REDEMPTIVE SUFFERING to their OWN DETRIMENT. Jesus willed that the mystery of His PASSION and [b]SUFFERING continue[/b] on in us for the GOOD of THE BODY of CHRIST.

"I find joy in the sufferings I endure for you. In my own flesh I fill up what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ for the sake of His Body, the Church" (Col. 1:24).

St. Paul was so filled with JOY of SUFFERING: "I find [b]JOY [/b] in the SUFFERINGS I endure for YOU. In my own flesh I fill up what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ for the sake of His Body, the Church" (Col. 1:24).

Ask yourself why does Paul have to ENDURE SUFFERINGS for US?

It is in the MEMBERS of His Body that something is LACKING. Yes, we are not PERFECT/SPOTLESS, we are LACKING and Paul knew this and in the FLESH we are to IMITATE Paul and REJOICE in our SUFFERINGS and FILL UP WHAT is LACKING in the BODY of CHRIST. To [b]DENY[/b] ourselves and CARRY/PICK UP our CROSS,[b] with JOY [/b]as we are UNITED with JESUS, in his PASSION.

[Budge]

[quote]I should point out that if our own actions have nothing to do with entering Heaven, then everyone goes to Heaven.[/quote]

Think about what youre saying, if one's own actions could get someone into heaven, why did Jesus have to die on the cross then? That makes no sense.

[b]"For by GRACE are ye saved through FAITH; and that not of yourselves: it is the GIFT of God: NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast." (Eph 2:8,9) ....[/b]

[quote]Nowhere does Catholic Doctrine imply Jesus's sacrifice on the Cross wasn't "good enough." It was neccesary for our salvation.[/quote]

As Ive said Catholicism in a way teaches that Jesus only made salvation "possible" but YOU yourself have to finish the job.

[quote]"also."[/quote]

[quote]Jesus had to die for our sins to save us. We must also follow Him. We have to participate to go to Heaven. If His sacrifice was all that was necessary, then we could do whatever we wanted and still go to Heaven.[/quote]

Dont you realize the very definition of grace, is that you DO NOT EARN IT?

Grace in other words cant be CONDITIONAL....



[quote]Paul knew exactly the VALUE of SUFFERING for the sake of the BODY of CHRIST.[/quote]

Sure...

Paul got beaten for preaching. He got Gods Word out to the world.

When Mother Teresa had her nuns get rid of perfectly good curtains and rugs and blankets, and when Opus Dei members beat themselves with ropes or wear the pointy chain on their thighs, they DO NOTHING for OTHERS. Their suffering or lets say self-masochism in many cases causes suffering for others.

[quote]Paul wrote: "I chastise my body and bring it into subjection: lest perhaps when I have preached to others I myself should be castaway" (I Cor. 9:27).

There is no confusion here and Paul SUBJECTED and CHASTISED HIS BODY for what was LACKING in the BODY of CHRIST. In his FLESH[/quote]

Paul did not beat himself or put rocks in his shoes like Catholic monks.
[quote]If you wish to be perfect, sell everything.(Matt.19:21)

24 Then Jesus told his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. (Matt.16:24)

How does Budge, deny thyself?? The sister of Charity are following the words of Jesus.[/quote]

Have you sold everything?

After all if you are going to apply this to me, you need to apply it to yourself.

By the way I do not live the typical American lifestyle, I have talked about this before. But even then I have what Gods gives me and where God wants me to be. If He wants me to sell something or give it away, I do it.


[quote]There is no grace that comes to any human that was not merited by Jesus at the CROSS.[/quote]

Catholicism abuses the very word GRACE.

While I see Gods grace as freely given via His Love, Catholics see grace as something to be EARNED via good behavior, rituals and rites.

Grace for a Christian is resting in His Love and knowing God loved us enough to die for our sins. It is being secure knowing you are in His Hand.

We are saved by grace through faith, not by faith, as in the parable of the lost son, God the Father responds to our belief and repentance by embracing us and granting us forgiveness by His grace alone when we deserve nothing but condemnation.


Grace for a Catholic is indulgences, Masses, suffering in Purgatory, and hoping one is "good" enough for God to let them into heaven. it is being insecure, awaiting death knowing you will suffer a "burning fire" beyond all the pains of earth, it is total insecurity.

Here too, Catholicism ignores the direct teachings of Paul:

[b]Romans 11:6 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.[/b]
[quote]Budge, fundamentalism denies REDEMPTIVE SUFFERING to their OWN DETRIMENT. Jesus willed that the mystery of His PASSION and SUFFERING continue on in us for the GOOD of THE BODY of CHRIST.[/quote]

This is totally wrong.

Jesus died on the cross, because HE LOVED US, He wanted to spare His children the eternity of HELL and being lost to Him.

We are not needed to "finish" the job for HIm. He is ressurrected, He has achieved victory over sin and death.
[b]
Romans 6:10
For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.[/b]

By God's grace alone means by God's grace alone, no "ifs," "ands," or "buts." or ALSO's.....

Philippians 3:8-9 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

[b]
8Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

9[u]And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:[/u]
[/b]

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='Budge' post='1373654' date='Aug 29 2007, 03:09 PM']While I see Gods grace as freely given via His Love, Catholics see grace as something to be EARNED via good behavior, rituals and rites.[/quote]
With respect, that's a lie or a mistake, but in either case it's wrong.

As you note, we are saved by GRACE through faith. Faith is the mechanism by which we access grace, i.e. the essence of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen, and which expresses itself through works. As has been pointed out to you [i]on many occassions[/i], "faith without works is dead."

Or is that scripture too inconvenient?

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='Budge' post='1373397' date='Aug 29 2007, 10:16 AM']That poem Im sorry has nothing to do with Christianity and everything to do with teaching folks to LOOK TO THEIR SELVES instead of the will of God.
This basically says LOOK TO SELF>[/quote]
(Luke24:32) "They said to each other, "Were not our hearts burning within us while he was talking to us on the road, while he was opening the scriptures to us?"

Oh noes, the disciples were turning into themselves when they were despairing Christ's death... or maybe the poem was alluding to Scripture as being a refuge... that only took me one second to think of that... so who reads their bible?

[Mateo el Feo]

The false gospel of Budgianity:[quote name='Budge' post='1373502' date='Aug 29 2007, 01:43 PM']There is no such thing as REDEMPTIVE SUFFERING.[/quote]

The True Gospel of Our Lord, Jesus Christ:

[b]Phillipians 1:29[/b]: "For to you has been granted, for the sake of Christ, not only to believe in him but also to suffer for him."

[b]2 Cor 4:8-12, 17[/b]: "We are afflicted in every way, but not constrained; perplexed, but not driven to despair; persecuted, but not abandoned; struck down, but not destroyed; always carrying about in the body the dying of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be manifested in our body.

For we who live are constantly being given up to death for the sake of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may be manifested in our mortal flesh. So death is at work in us, but life in you. For this momentary light affliction is producing for us an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison,"

[b]Romans 8:16-18[/b]: "The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if only we suffer with him so that we may also be glorified with him. I consider that the sufferings of this present time are as nothing compared with the glory to be revealed for us."

[b]2 Cor 12:5-10[/b]: "About this person I will boast, but about myself I will not boast, except about my weaknesses. Although if I should wish to boast, I would not be foolish, for I would be telling the truth. But I refrain, so that no one may think more of me than what he sees in me or hears from me because of the abundance of the revelations. Therefore, that I might not become too elated, 3 a thorn in the flesh was given to me, an angel of Satan, to beat me, to keep me from being too elated.

Three times I begged the Lord about this, that it might leave me, but he said to me, 'My grace is sufficient for you, for power is made perfect in weakness.' I will rather boast most gladly of my weaknesses, in order that the power of Christ may dwell with me. Therefore, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and constraints, for the sake of Christ; for when I am weak, then I am strong."

[b]1 Peter 4:1-2[/b]: "Therefore, since Christ suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same attitude (for whoever suffers in the flesh has broken with sin), so as not to spend what remains of one's life in the flesh on human desires, but on the will of God"

[b]1 Peter 4:19[/b]: "[T]hose who suffer in accord with God's will hand their souls over to a faithful creator as they do good."

[b]1 Peter 5:8-10[/b]: "Be sober and vigilant. Your opponent the devil is prowling around like a roaring lion looking for (someone) to devour. Resist him, steadfast in faith, knowing that your fellow believers throughout the world undergo the same sufferings. The God of all grace who called you to his eternal glory through Christ (Jesus) will himself restore, confirm, strengthen, and establish you after you have suffered a little."

-----

As usual, Budge's (wo)man-made religion has nothing to do with Christianity. It's sad that there are so many nominal Christians like Budge who lack the most basic knowledge of Holy Scriptures.

Edited August 29, 2007 by Mateo el Feo

[BG45]

Wee off topic, and for that I apologize. However, Budge, thank you. In your own way, you've made me take a deeper look at Catholicism with your posts, and having to research your various points, and people's various counterpoints.

A friend once stated, that either Catholicism is the True Church, or the greatest hoax in human history. It's interesting to read your posts, as well as Catholic posts.

[Budge]

Thanks BG.

[Budge]

Mateo all those scriptures discuss suffering for the gospel.

They do not discuss suffering to gain entry into heaven or having one's own suffering gain them redemption.

Ie: a Christian is put to death for preaching the gospel on the street to folks...

that is suffering for the gospel and suffering for others--putting ones life at risk to bring them the gospel.

Ie: A "Christian" makes several knotted ropes, and at night hits themselves on their back causing themselves pain.

that is suffering for suffering's sake, and does no good for anyone.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Budge' post='1373771' date='Aug 29 2007, 06:43 PM']Mateo all those scriptures discuss suffering for the gospel.

They do not discuss suffering to gain entry into heaven or having one's own suffering gain them redemption.

Ie: a Christian is put to death for preaching the gospel on the street to folks...

that is suffering for the gospel and suffering for others--putting ones life at risk to bring them the gospel.

Ie: A "Christian" makes several knotted ropes, and at night hits themselves on their back causing themselves pain.

that is suffering for suffering's sake, and does no good for anyone.[/quote]
As was already quoted to you in this thread (and you ignored in your typical fashion), St. Paul himself said:[quote][b]I chastise my body [/b]and bring it into subjection: lest perhaps when I have preached to others I myself should be castaway.[/quote](I Cor. 9:27)
Note St. Paul says he himself chastises his body - not just that others persecute him.

And fasting is mentioned many times in the Bible as a good thing. Fasting is a form of willing chastisement of the flesh. The Apostles are mentioned fasting several times in Acts (see Acts 13 and 14).


And no, suffering for its own sake does no good, only when it is united to the Sacrifice of Christ.
You as usual show a willfull ignorance of both Church teaching and Scripture.
The Catholic Church does not teach that we can earn salvation ourselves by suffering or otherwise. Repeating this lie endlessly will not make it true, so just give it up.

[Mateo el Feo]

Budge, your interpretations of the Gospel doesn't hold much water. But I will comment on a couple of your statements.

[quote name='Budge' post='1373771' date='Aug 29 2007, 08:43 PM']Ie: A "Christian" makes several knotted ropes, and at night hits themselves on their back causing themselves pain.[/quote]How about a "Christian" plucking his eye out that would otherwise cause him to sin? In the context of the Gospel, a knotted rope sounds downright mild.

In fact, it is even mild in the context of contemporary society. For example, how painful is plucking eye brows for the sake of vanity? If only we desired the Kingdom of God as much as those who go through all sorts of pains (many much worse than plucking eyebrows) for the sake of the world.

If you would leave the influence of anti-Catholic fairytales, you'd learn the real truth about such acts of penance. Read the lives of the saints, and you'll find that their spiritual advisors always cautioned against august acts that could cause any real harm to their body.

Since you're talking about Opus Dei here, I'll quote "The Way":[quote name='"The Way' date=' para. 202"']You are going to punish yourself voluntarily for your weakness and lack of generosity? Very good: but let it be a reasonable penance, imposed as it were, on an enemy who is at the same time your brother?[/quote]

[quote name='Budge' post='1373771' date='Aug 29 2007, 08:43 PM']that is suffering for suffering's sake, and does no good for anyone.[/quote]You really have no idea what you're talking about here; but, one thing is for sure: this statement cannot be applied to Catholicism, since no Catholic believes in "suffering for suffering's sake." Read my quote from 2 Cor 12 and Socrate's quote from 1 Cor 9. St. Paul even goes so far to say that, as a result of suffering, "the life of Jesus may be manifested in our mortal flesh."

If our words don't speak to you, maybe Saint Paul's will.

Bringing this back to Mother Teresa, she certainly didn't desire that anyone suffer for the sake of suffering. She was living the Beatitudes (i.e. feed the hungry, clothe the naked, etc).