Why Is Doubt Considered A Good Thing In The Catholic Church

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote]Some of you need to realize the truly HOLY and SAINTLY, do not become WORLD CELEBRITIES. They are doing their work behind the scenes, unnoticed and unrewarded {in this world}[/quote]

Oh we Catholics do realize that there are those who go unnoticed who are holy and saintly. Does it bother you that much Budge, that Mother Theresa was well reknown and DONATIONS from all over the world came to her WORK and these people felt COMPELLED from the BOTTOM of their SOUL to GIVE.. Does it negate her SERVICE because she was a so called "CELEBRITY", as you stated.

Regardless of what you have "heard" and what you believe to be true, your CONDEMNATION of Mother Theresa means nothing to us. You are not her JUDGE, nor do you sit at the RIGHT HAND of JESUS.

Are you sure you don't belong to the Land over Baptist family!

Edited August 28, 2007 by "Kyrie eleison"

[Budge]

[quote]BTW, the dirty little secret in this discussion is that adherents of the Pentecostal / Fundamentalist / Evangelical religions harbor doubts as well, usually after the "honeymoon" period they experience immediately subsequent to being "saved," but can't actually talk about it because that would challenge the veracity of their "saved"-ness. Better to just stick their fingers in their ears and shout "la la la la I can't hear you I'm not listening" than actually think.[/quote]

Sure, Satan can send doubts, and all sorts of rot, but the Christian is trained to stand on the Word and in our churches, this stuff isnt celebrated or falsely held up as a mark of a saint with all this "dark night of the soul" nonsense.

Christians know they will face tribulations and may cry out to God, etc but one thing one of my posters said today, she never met a saved Christian who denied the very exsistence of God {I agree} and sadly this was true of Mother Teresa,

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='kenrockthefirst' post='1372641' date='Aug 28 2007, 06:56 PM']BTW, the dirty little secret in this discussion is that adherents of the Pentecostal / Fundamentalist / Evangelical religions harbor doubts as well, usually after the "honeymoon" period they experience immediately subsequent to being "saved," but can't actually talk about it because that would challenge the veracity of their "saved"-ness. Better to just stick their fingers in their ears and shout "la la la la I can't hear you I'm not listening" than actually think.[/quote]Exactly. Budge can sound quite triumphalist with her fingers in her ears. Budge is pretty good at spam, but not too good at debate.

[cathoholic_anonymous]

I know full well that Assemblies of God clinics exist in India. I never denied that. I [i]did[/i] deny that sick people deliberately choose AoG clinics over MC clinics if they want to live.

And you knew that, Budge. But you chose to pretend that I had claimed the AoG clinics don't even exist...because a silly claim like that is easy to refute.

The statement I actually made is not so easy to refute, is it? Especially as your 'source' is a member of your own notoriously anti-Catholic website. Yet you present it as if it is fact. This fundamentalist poster 'guesses' that Mother Teresa thought she was earning her way to Heaven by living very simply - but did s/he have access to Mother Teresa's mind? To the MC bank statements and accountancy ledgers, even?

No. Clearly not.

Reading that makes [i]me[/i] sick, too - because it is a tissue of rumours and gossip and outright speculation. That's not Christian. Those people are tearing Mother Teresa to pieces simply because she's Catholic. The flimsiest pretext will do, as they operate on two principal assumptions:

1.) Nothing good can come out of Catholicism, so any seemingly holy or compassionate Catholic must be rotten at the core. It's just a question of scratching away at their exterior until you discover it.
2.) It is a crucial part of 'mission work' to harm the reputations of famous Catholics who are renowned for acts of kindness, as this will make the Catholic faith seem less credible. And it's not as if those acts of kindness are [i]real[/i] and Christ-centred. They can't be! Not if they originate with Catholics!

And so you get trapped in the same poisonous circle.

As I pointed out (and you conveniently ignored) Mother Teresa wasn't always famous. She was living and working with the poor and sick and lonely for [b]MANY YEARS[/b] before she was discovered by the BBC. By your logic, did she cease to be holy once people got to know her face?

By your logic, did Jesus cease to be holy when He turned thirty and began three years of public ministry that soon had the land in uproar? Thousands of people flocked to hear Jesus if word got about that He was in town. His celebrity certainly didn't impinge on His holiness.

Your statement that holiness goes unseen does not square with the posts you once made about cloistered nuns. There you argued vigorously that a holy life is an active, public life. Holiness, you argued, is no good unless it is seen. Yet your disparaging remarks about fame contradicts that outright. This proves to me that you will criticise anything Catholic, without regard for internal consistency, for no other reason than it is Catholic.

[Socrates]

Anyone else notice how in her threads against Catholic nuns and religious, Budge will in one post attack them for their austere lifestyle and practices of self-denial, then in another lambast them for being too rich and worldly?!

Budge's posts bring to mind these words of Christ:[quote]But whereunto shall I esteem this generation to be like? It is like to children sitting in the market place.
Who crying to their companions say: We have piped to you, and you have not danced: we have lamented, and you have not mourned.
[b]For John came neither eating nor drinking; and they say: He hath a devil.
The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say: Behold a man that is a glutton and a wine drinker, a friend of publicans and sinners.[/b][/quote]~ Matt. 11:16-19

Edited August 29, 2007 by Socrates

[Apotheoun]

I suppose that this makes Budge consistently inconsistent.

[Farsight one]

Alright Budge, how many people did mother Theresa care for? And how many meals a day did they get because of her? And how much did each meal cost? And how much did the cots they slept in cost? And how much were the blankets and pillows? And how much did the housing cost? And how much did the medicine cost? And how much did flying in doctors to seem some of the actually sick persons cost? I'm surprised that Mother Theresa managed to do what she did with the money she got in donations and I highly doubt that you or anyone else could have done more. With what I can figure out from the way you talk, it seems like you would have bought full sized actual beds and mattresses for everyone. If you did that, then I doubt you'd have any donation money left to feed these people. Mother Theresa did what she could with what she had, and she devoted her entire life to trying to help others. Even if she wasn't all that good or efficient at it, it's the fact that she tried so hard that matters most.

[Norseman82]

Budge,

Keep in mind a few other things:

1) Her order operates worldwide. It costs millions to do that.

2) Perhaps you are confusing hospices and hospitals? Hospices are not there to treat disease, they are there to allow the dying to die with some dignity instead of in a street gutter while people pass them by. I would like to think that you know the difference, but then again, I could be wrong.

Also, these points that you bring up are old. Here is a link for you to read:

[url="http://www.nybooks.com/articles/1434"]http://www.nybooks.com/articles/1434[/url]

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='Budge' post='1372655' date='Aug 28 2007, 05:10 PM']Sure, Satan can send doubts, and all sorts of rot, but the Christian is trained to stand on the Word and in our churches, this stuff isnt celebrated or falsely held up as a mark of a saint with all this "dark night of the soul" nonsense.

Christians know they will face tribulations and may cry out to God, etc but one thing one of my posters said today, she never met a saved Christian who denied the very exsistence of God {I agree} and sadly this was true of Mother Teresa,[/quote]
Right. Thinking and honesty are [i]verboten[/i] in the Pentecostal / Fundamentalist / Evangelical religions.

By your standard, not even Jesus would have made the cut.

[thessalonian]

Did we read the same story because I don't see where it said she denied God. May have questioned him but what I see is a faith that persevered in trial, believing without seeing. Without feeling the "closeness" all the time and acting day in and day out even though she was not always given warm fuzzies by God. That is faith.

[Budge]

Jesus cried out as all Christians do in tribulation.

That had nothing to do with statements about God NOT existing.

I wrote this on my board and it applies here..

When I read the testimony of born again Christians some of who even died for the gospel, martyrs, missionaries living in some of the worse places on earth, one thing that stands out is the joy they have in Jesus Christ no matter what circumstances they face. I have seen this even personally with fellow believers and friends, people who have faced severe things, including a disabled friend of mine who has been unable to leave her house for years who suffers immense pain on a daily basis, and who always shows joy in Jesus Christ. By the way this friend was the only Christian I knew at the time I was saved. I know she was praying for me.

The Christian life is one of comfort, and joy in Jesus Christ. His love is always there. A Christian can be homeless, doubled over in pain, having lost people to death, and if they focus on HIm, they will have joy and comfort in Him despite even the most horrific things in life. Catholics dont understand that, I am sure they would think some of these folks were insane or something.

To me the examples of Christian holiness to emulate are those mature Christians who can withstand all sorts of adversity {and yes God understands our tear and pain} but even there, knowing and holding faith in Christ, and feeling His LOVE.

But the thing that stands out to me about these Catholic saints, and to be honest this is horrifying to me. Some Catholics will misunderstand and think "Oh Budge hates Mother Teresa" etc...in fact my feelings are not of angry or hate, but immense pity for those stuck in what is basically MISERY, DEPRESSION AND DESPAIR and it didnt have to be this way.


The Christian way despite tribulation is one of joy and comfort.

The Catholic way with tribulation, seems to be one of horrifying suffering, misery and pain and no comfort.

This is a promise of God's all born again Christians can hold to.
[font="Arial Black"]
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.[/font]

Where was this for Mother Teresa?

[Kirisutodo333]

[quote name='Budge' post='1372333' date='Aug 28 2007, 11:20 AM']QUOTE
It's called Dark Night of the Soul.

Christians are not supposed to live in darkness. This is another lie of Catholicism to glorify ANYTHING that has to do with darkness.
[font="Arial Black"]
1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.[/font][/quote]

This is what Dark Night of the Soul means to us:

1. One dark night,
fired with love's urgent longings
- ah, the sheer grace! -
I went out unseen,
my house being now all stilled.

2. In darkness, and secure,
by the secret ladder, disguised,
- ah, the sheer grace! -
in darkness and concealment,
my house being now all stilled.

3. On that glad night,
in secret, for no one saw me,
nor did I look at anything,
with no other light or guide
than the one that burned in my heart.

4. This guided me
more surely than the light of noon
to where he was awaiting me
- him I knew so well -
there in a place where no one appeared.

5. O guiding night!
O night more lovely than the dawn!
O night that has united
the Lover with his beloved,
transforming the beloved in her Lover.

6. Upon my flowering breast
which I kept wholly for him alone,
there he lay sleeping,
and I caressing him
there in a breeze from the fanning cedars.

7. When the breeze blew from the turret,
as I parted his hair,
it wounded my neck
with its gentle hand,
suspending all my senses.

8. I abandoned and forgot myself,
laying my face on my Beloved;
all things ceased; I went out from myself,
leaving my cares
forgotten among the lilies.

-San Juan de la Cruz

Pray that God doesn't put your faith to the test. I have my doubts about you making it through the dark night. But I will pray for you.

Another thing, last time I checked most saints were persecuted, spit on, walked all over, imprisoned and degraded.

Here is my statement: [b]Budge is a true testament to Mother Teresa’s saintly virtues. [/b]

Paz en Cristo

Kiris

[Budge]

That poem Im sorry has nothing to do with Christianity and everything to do with teaching folks to LOOK TO THEIR SELVES instead of the will of God.


[quote]3. On that glad night,
in secret, for no one saw me,
nor did I look at anything,
[b]with no other light or guide
than the one that burned in my heart.[/b][/quote]

This basically says LOOK TO SELF>

The Bible says the heart is a deceitful thing, your poem says otherwise.

[quote]5. O guiding night!
O night more lovely than the dawn!
O night that has united
the Lover with his beloved,
transforming the beloved in her Lover.[/quote]

[b]Night is more lovely then the dawn?[/b]

Luk 11:35 Take heed therefore that the light which is in thee be not darkness.
[quote]Pray that God doesn't put your faith to the test. I have my doubts about you making it through the dark night. But I will pray for you.[/quote]
[u]
Ive had tribulation like many others, I will not go into detail here. But lets just say, I am not a young Catholic who romanticizes suffering, out of never having been there.[/u]

and that is one false thing about your religion, that says suffering is good and then even praises a woman living in despair for years, because she was given a false gospel.

I feel sorry for MOther Teresa. If I had met her I would have had a serious chat with her, and told her YOU DO NOT HAVE TO WORK YOUR WAY TO HEAVEN.

Edited August 29, 2007 by Budge

[TotusTuusMaria]

Oh, how I wish you would have met Mother Teresa.

Budge your words are not those of love but rather of hate. And calling someone names and making great accusations about them is not how you show pity. I do wish you would have met Mother Teresa and had a "good long chat" with her. I wish it probably more than you do.

[thessalonian]

If the darkness could not be good then why did God put us in it? Isn't there a psalm that talks about the day and the night being one. The night can be good because the light of Christ guides us through it. God allows the darkness for our spiritual growth and so that we can trust in him to get us to the dawn of the new day.