Why Is Doubt Considered A Good Thing In The Catholic Church

[Budge]

This thread is related to the whole Mother Teresa debate...

[url="http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1655415-1,00.html"]MOTHER TERESAS CRISIS OF FAITH[/url]

[url="http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/003200708251758.htm"]VATICAN: MOTHER TERESAS SAINTHOOD NOT AT RISK [/url]


Ok going to have lot of personal comments on this one. Lets start with the doubt thing. One thing Ive posted before on my board.... is asking the question is your faith based on facts or feelings?

I believe when one is stuck in the "God isnt real" mode or doubting something as basic as God's exsistence, then you have a serious spiritual problem on your hands. Can the devil send even a fleeting thought to a Bible Christian trying to bring them to doubt or despair sure, but what you do with that stuff, also shows youre spiritual mettle. Do you follow the instructions of Gods Word and know you are in spiritual warfare, stand on the Word, and rebuke the devil or do you stay in that mode for something like 40 years?

Im sorry doubt is not something to be celebrated. This doesnt mean I want Christians to have shut down minds and never think or question their faith....but doubt is not a good thing. Losing faith, [well in this case I believe it was never had] and [b]those constant commentson Catholic blogs since this news about Mother Teresa broke about "divine darkness" and glorification of something they call a "dark night of the soul", it makes me want to throw up. [/b]

Any Bible Christian who goes into that mode of despair or doubt, and hey it can happen to all of us--Satan is a wolf wanting to devour, that is something where you stand on the Word and is something that needs to be [b]REPENTED OF.[/b] Not celebrated.[u] I have to make this distinction, not all unhappiness, tears or even despair is sinful, read the book of Job and Psalms that speak of human suffering..., many have cried out to God but the type where the devil is given a place, and one turns their back on God...that is something else.[/u]

When a person is born again, even if they become backslidden, or have major things happen to them in their life, and or have backed away from Gods Will....there is always a connection to God, the words of Mother Teresa in that other thread to me are not the words of a backslidden Christian or one struggling with the world's temptations or one in despair but to me, of someone who has never known God, perhaps still searching but sadly given idols and more who has the emptiness inside. These feelings of emptiness are nothing foreign to anyone who has ever been cut off from God, and that includes me in my younger years.

The thing that is scary about, is now the Vatican most likely is going to make this lady a saint. The whole world knows now that inside she felt empty, and did not feel God's precense for many years. One where her doubt and turning back on God is NOW horrifyingly being HELD UP AS AN EXAMPLE OF HOLINESS and I am seeing this commented all over on Catholic blogs and websites and this article is an example of what I am talking about.

I think her words are tragic too. The sad thing is I remember writing stuff kind of like that when I was an unbeliever in my journals...about there being no God, and such like that, one can tell she is trapped in the world of unbelief. So dont make the mistake of thinking I have no compassion for her, but here's the problem unlike Christians who have received Gods free gift of salvation, Mother Teresa was left stumbling in the darkness believing her own works would save her, and working hard {harder then many} believing these works would get her into heaven, not realizing what the gospel was truly about.

I actually RELATE to what she writes, based on my past experience, but that was pre-salvation days. Today life can be at its worse, and I know God is always with me.
While the devil can send doubts to a Christian, with the sword {the WORD} these are easily chopped into bits, within a very short time. Sadly Mother Teresa without a true relationship with God, and without His Word, was left to stumble in the dark of human angst, depression, and despair. One can tell reading these words, that her works were just silly putty over major cracks in the facade. Truly it is a tragedy for all involved.

I feel sorrow over EVERY ONE that ends up in delusion.....but it is interesting for me to read here, that the Vatican sees no problem in making a saint of someone who had a "crisis of faith" for over 40 years and who turned away from God? This is to be the example of someone that Catholics should emulate?

If only someone had shared the true gospel with her, instead of spiritual directors who lied to her and told her that doubt, and turning one's back on God was a sign of holiness.

[beatty07]

If you never end up in Gethsemane, then whoever you're following, it isn't Christ.

Pray that if God deems your faith worthy of trial, that you may show one percent the perseverance and faith of this woman.

Who, by the way, was not a Pelagian heretic believing that her works would earn her Heaven. I guess you can join Chris Hitchens as the "we're really upset that a person spent her life serving the poor" society.

[Budge]

[quote]. If you never end up in Gethsemane, then whoever you're following, it isn't Christ.[/quote]

Sure, there WILL be PERSECUTION for the gospel, every beleiver even ones of us in America can attest to a certain degree though ours is certainly lighter then Christian brother and sisters who are dying elsewhere in the world for preaching the gospel.

However if Mother Teresa doubted [u]continously [/u]even the existence of God, where is the following in that? Where is the faith?

She made the WORKS the center of her life, and she expected that to fulfill what Faith in Jesus Christ is supposed to do for the Christian believer. It doesnt work that way.


[quote]Who, by the way, was not a Pelagian heretic believing that her works would earn her Heaven.[/quote]

Didnt you read what she said in the articles?
[quote]Teresa told her nuns that physical poverty ensured empathy in "giving themselves" to the suffering poor and established a stronger bond with Christ's redemptive agony. She wrote in 1951 that the Passion was the only aspect of Jesus' life that she was interested in sharing: "I want to ... drink ONLY [her emphasis] from His chalice of pain." And so she did, although by all indications not in a way she had expected.[/quote]

Her problem was thinking she had to add her works and sufferings to what Christ did on the cross instead of putting her faith totally in Him.

Mat 11:30 For my yoke [is] easy, and my burden is light.

This doesnt seem to be the Jesus at all that Teresa was thinking of.

All of her pain and suffering was unnecessary, the results of darkness due to a false gospel. She did not suffer bringing the gospel to people--told Time magazine the quote about letting Hindus be better Hindus, but put her trust in her own works.
Even while she helped the beggars and more on a certain level she did nothing for their souls. How could she? She was not free in Christ but in total bondage herself.

Edited August 27, 2007 by Budge

[Sojourner]

I was just talking about this with a friend last night, specifically referencing Mother Teresa and her doubts.

Doubts are a natural and normal part of faith and of life. I doubt lots of things. I doubt people's feelings for me, I doubt my feelings for people, I doubt my abilities, etc. My relationship with God is not exempted from this general doubting. Doubting can be a killer in a relationship if one of two things happen: If you suppress the doubts and don't allow yourself to acknowledge and deal with them, or if the other person is not capable of being patient and understanding while you deal with your doubts.

God is patient and more than capable of surviving our doubts. But if we fail to acknowledge and deal with our doubts, however, that happens to come about, then the doubts get stronger and become the elephant in the room that affect how you think about faith and damage your relationship with God. Doubt gains power when it is not addressed.

What I think about Mother Teresa's doubts is that even though she had them from time to time, she acted in accordance with her vows (both those she made through the Church and her order) as though the doubts did not exist. But she did not ignore them. She voiced her doubts to people, and did the hard work of wrestling with them. This, I find refreshing. We so often choose things based on how we feel ... "I don't feel like being married to you any longer, so good bye." It's wonderful to see someone follow through with their commitments despite the feelings that might have otherwise kept her from doing the good that she did. Her obedience in the face of suffering is incredibly beautiful.

[prose]

I am glad that Mother Teresa did not give up her faith because of human doubts. Could you imagine what would happen if we all did that?

Have you read any of her works, Budge?

How can you possible say she did not preach the gospel? That is all she did throughout her entire life. Vocally, through the written word, and her life was all ways she preached the Gospel.

[CatholicCid]

[quote name='Budge' post='1371620' date='Aug 27 2007, 12:00 PM']Sure, there WILL be PERSECUTION for the gospel[/quote]

Christ was persecuted in Gethsemane? I thought he went up there alone

Edited August 27, 2007 by CatholicCid

[kateri05]

[quote]If you never end up in Gethsemane, then whoever you're following, it isn't Christ.


Sure, there WILL be PERSECUTION for the gospel[/quote]

gethsemane had nothing to do with persecution, gethsemane was all about Christ's inner anguish over submitting to God's will out of love, despite the human nature part of Him knowing that death was going to hurt.

gethsemane is about mental anguish, mental torment and it doesn't mean that one has lost faith, it means that one is HUMAN and has doubts. the fortitude comes in saying, God is bigger than my doubts, "not my will, but Yours be done."

you know, kinda like Mother Theresa DID

[cathoholic_anonymous]

Catholics don't see Mother Teresa's doubt as a good thing.

The good thing is the way that she carried on praying and continued to stake her life on the Gospel, minute in and minute out, no matter how she was feeling.

Mother Teresa is a beautiful example of faith, because she teaches us that faith is more than an emotion.

How many new evangelical Protestants who responded to an altar call walk away from church when the euphoria of the music and the congratulations and the charismatic prayers die away? The number is unfortunately quite high. Some of those temporary converts don't ever have faith; they have feelings. As soon as the feelings are gone, they are left with nothing.

Unlike Mother Teresa, who knew that she had everything even if she couldn't feel it emotionally.

[Mateo el Feo]

Ignoring Budge's desparate attempts to attack this saintly woman, I immediately thought of the wisdom of Thomas a Kempis:[quote name='"Imitation of Christ' date=' II-10"'][b][size=4][center]Wanting No Share in Comfort[/center][/size][/b]
[b]IT IS not hard to spurn human consolation when we have the divine. It is, however, a very great thing indeed to be able to live without either divine or human comforting and for the honor of God willingly to endure this exile of heart, not to seek oneself in anything, and to think nothing of one’s own merit.[/b]

Does it matter much, if at the coming of grace, you are cheerful and devout? This is an hour desired by all, for he whom the grace of God sustains travels easily enough. What wonder if he feel no burden when borne up by the Almighty and led on by the Supreme Guide! For we are always glad to have something to comfort us, and only with difficulty does a man divest himself of self.

The holy martyr, Lawrence, with his priest, conquered the world because he despised everything in it that seemed pleasing to him, and for love of Christ patiently suffered the great high priest of God, Sixtus, whom he loved dearly, to be taken from him. Thus, by his love for the Creator he overcame the love of man, and chose instead of human consolation the good pleasure of God. So you, too, must learn to part with an intimate and much-needed friend for the love of God. Do not take it to heart when you are deserted by a friend, knowing that in the end we must all be parted from one another.

A man must fight long and bravely against himself before he learns to master himself fully and to direct all his affections toward God. When he trusts in himself, he easily takes to human consolation. The true lover of Christ, however, who sincerely pursues virtue, does not fall back upon consolations nor seek such pleasures of sense, but prefers severe trials and hard labors for the sake of Christ.

[b]When, therefore, spiritual consolation is given by God, receive it gratefully, but understand that it is His gift and not your meriting. Do not exult, do not be overjoyed, do not be presumptuous, but be the humbler for the gift, more careful and wary in all your actions, for this hour will pass and temptation will come in its wake.[/b]

When consolation is taken away, do not at once despair but wait humbly and patiently for the heavenly visit, since God can restore to you more abundant solace.

This is neither new nor strange to one who knows God’s ways, for such change of fortune often visited the great saints and prophets of old. Thus there was one who, when grace was with him, declared: “In my prosperity I said: ‘I shall never be moved.’” But when grace was taken away, he adds what he experienced in himself: “Thou didst hide Thy face, and I was troubled.” Meanwhile he does not despair; rather he prays more earnestly to the Lord, saying: “To Thee, O Lord, will I cry; and I will make supplication to my God.” At length, he receives the fruit of his prayer, and testifying that he was heard, says “The Lord hath heard, and hath had mercy on me: the Lord became my helper.” And how was he helped? “Thou hast turned,” he says, “my mourning into joy, and hast surrounded me with gladness.” Ps. 29:7-12.
If this is the case with great saints, we who are weak and poor ought not to despair because we are fervent at times and at other times cold, for the spirit comes and goes according to His will. Of this the blessed Job declared: “Thou visitest him early in the morning, and Thou provest him suddenly.” Job 7:18.
In what can I hope, then, or in whom ought I trust, save only in the great mercy of God and the hope of heavenly grace? For though I have with me good men, devout brethren, faithful friends, holy books, beautiful treatises, sweet songs and hymns, all these help and please but little when I am abandoned by grace and left to my poverty. At such times there is no better remedy than patience and resignation of self to the will of God.

I have never met a man so religious and devout that he has not experienced at some time a withdrawal of grace and felt a lessening of fervor. No saint was so sublimely rapt and enlightened as not to be tempted before and after. He, indeed, is not worthy of the sublime contemplation of God who has not been tried by some tribulation for the sake of God. For temptation is usually the sign preceding the consolation that is to follow, and heavenly consolation is promised to all those proved by temptation. “To him that overcometh,” says Christ, “I will give to eat of the Tree of Life.” Apoc. 2:7. [b]Divine consolation, then, is given in order to make a man braver in enduring adversity, and temptation follows in order that he may not pride himself on the good he has done.[/b]

The devil does not sleep, nor is the flesh yet dead; therefore, you must never cease your preparation for battle, because on the right and on the left are enemies who never rest.[/quote]Our Lord is not an almighty vending machine that dishes out all that we ask for. He is Our Creator, who gives us all that we [i]need[/i].

In the case of Mother Theresa, she was given trials to test her faith. Which one of us could say that we would remain faithful to Our Lord (as she did) with so little consolation for decades?

Of course, Jack Chick-Christianity doesn't understand the difference between desolation and despair. The former can be a temptation; the latter a sin. Just as Our Lord strengthened prophets such as Moses in his early days with desolation, Mother Theresa's virtues were galvanized by the same means.

[Winchester]

[sarcasm] Doubt is considered a good thing in the Catholic Church because the Pope is really Elvis, who was fortold to be the anti-Christ. The Catholic Church is the Lady of the Evening of Babylon and is trying to turn the world into a one government planet ruled secretly by th Lizard People. Pope John Paul II is not dead, has donned a Scary German costume from Ye Olde Eville Catholic Costumme Shoppe in the Vatican (built on a hill, obviously something that only evil cities do) and is helping to erode the morals of Christendom by insisting that killing unborn children is not, in fact, okay.[/sarcasm]

[kenrockthefirst]

So, what, we should all check our brains at the door and imbibe the Kool-Aid like Born Again True Believers?

That's why I left the Evangelical movement. The world isn't black and white, and if you can't ask questions, you're not being allowed to be human.

"My God, my God, why have You forsaken me?"

Ring any bells?

Edited August 27, 2007 by kenrockthefirst

[Budge]

[quote]How can you possible say she did not preach the gospel? That is all she did throughout her entire life. Vocally, through the written word, and her life was all ways she preached the Gospel.[/quote]

How is this preaching the gospel, it isnt, this is the gospel of the antichrist..
[b][quote]In the biography Mother Teresa: Her People and Her Work, she is quoted by Desmond Doig as follows: "If in coming face to face with God we accept Him in our lives, then we are converting. We become a better Hindu, a better Muslim, a better Catholic, a better whatever we are. ... What approach would I use? For me, naturally, it would be a Catholic one, for you it may be Hindu, for someone else, Buddhist, according to one’s conscience. What God is in your mind you must accept" (Doig, Mother Teresa, Harper & Row, 1976, p. 156).[/quote][/b]

as for the rest and suffering...

Jesus never doubted God exsisted, He was God. He never doubted the other members of the trinity, denying God the Father etc.
[b]
Calling out to God in pain and anguish is not turning away from God! [/b]

I preach all the time on my board one is to ignore emotions and stand on the Word, Satan will use emotions, to take a person away from God.

But to say that someone like Mother Teresa who actually at one time sought an exorcist!!, and who in this book in her quotes denies God's exsistence, that is something different. She put her trust in the works she did. She did not put trust in God.

[Mateo el Feo]

Honestly Budge, your words echo such a profound and willful ignorance.

[Socrates]

I'm glad Mother Theresa's Faith was expressed by dedicating her life to serving the poor and dying, rather than to posting slanderous tripe on an internet message board.

By their fruits ye shall know them . . .

[Budge]

[quote]I'm glad Mother Theresa's Faith was expressed by dedicating her life to serving the poor and dying, rather than to posting slanderous tripe on an internet message board.

By their fruits ye shall know them . . .[/quote]

a bowl of gruel, a shaved head, no pain killers and thin blue cot while racking in [u]millions[/u] in donations?

Color me unimpressed!

As for slanderous, these are her OWN words reported through a Catholic published book.