Christians Are Still Being Presecuted By Catholics

[Thy Geekdom Come]

Grasping at straws...

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote name='HollyDolly' post='1371713' date='Aug 27 2007, 04:00 PM']Extra Ecclesiam, These people who blend mayan beliefs and Catholicism
are not good Catholics.I'm not sure what faith the ancient germanic tribes of Bavaria and Swabia practiced,but there was never any hint of it in any of the catholic devotions practiced by my dad's family. These people were not given the proper religious instruction,because if they had ,they would have given up their pagan beliefs.

Yes,the evvangelicals may have confused the culture with these peoples faith,
however these people donot want to give up the ancient beliefs and have blended them with the Catholic faith, very similar to voodoo.

I seem to recall that the jesuits in China and clergy elsewhere have gotten into trouble
because they blend the Catholic faith with native stuff to incultureate the people and make it more acceptable to the natives and i guess more likely to convert them.
This is wrong. The holy martyers of Uganda who have a feast in the Church died because they would not give up their faith. Like these evangelicals they too were harrased and even killed for trying to spread the gospel of Jesus,not some watered down mishmash to make people happy.

As far as false gospel Aloysius is concerned,even if they use the KIng james version of the bible,it is still the New testament of Jesus and the Holy Apostles.
If these people are so worried about these evangelicals,then they,the local leaders need to go to the local parish and tell the priest or whoever that the people need classes in their faith so they do not fall prey to them,that they can defend the faith.
This is I feel really more of a power stuff that a religious one and the local community leaders are using religion as an excuse to cover up what is reallly behind the attacks.[/quote]

the Jesuit issue in China was resolved. Pius XII decided that the Chinese Catholics were allowed to praise Confucius and their ancestors, as long as it was done in a non-religious way (ie. don't ask them for favors, etc.).


the Day of the Dead is not really pagan, although it does have pagan origins. it is not a catholic Holiday. im not sure how much paganism exists in Mexico. there is nothing wrong with keeping your culture, and adopting Catholicism. the only problem is when you blend Catholicism with Pagan beliefs itself. it is quite appropriate to adopt old festivals or practices to Catholicism.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' post='1372384' date='Aug 28 2007, 05:08 PM']the Day of the Dead is not really pagan, although it does have pagan origins. it is not a catholic Holiday. im not sure how much paganism exists in Mexico. there is nothing wrong with keeping your culture, and adopting Catholicism. the only problem is when you blend Catholicism with Pagan beliefs itself. it is quite appropriate to adopt old festivals or practices to Catholicism.[/quote]

I don't know much about this day, but is it celebrated the same day as All Saints' Day (1 Nov)? If it has been incorporated into that, I see nothing wrong with it, provided it has not retained the actual pagan beliefs. In fact, it seems like it would be quite suited to being adapted to fit with All Saints, though again, I know little about it.

[Archaeology cat]

Okay, I just re-read that article. I do think the violence has gone too far, and indeed shouldn't have happened at all. I also noted that this article begins with the assumption that these celebrations are pagan and hedonistic, when it may not necessarily be the case. Or it could be that there is nothing wrong with the celebration itself, but that this particular area is corrupting it, I don't know. I do think, from this article, that the disagreements, which led to violence, are in large part due to a misunderstanding of the beliefs on the part of Protestants, and overreacting on both sides.

[Aloysius]

Budge, all you did was prove my point that you do not understand the culture. You call them "thugs" because they are different than you and result to a more dirct approach than picking up a picket sign, because they still do what men have always done when their cultures were attacked (Christian men as well).

Their culture is now inherently Christian, it has been infused with Christianity. These protestants have a false gospel attempting to lead people astray, to lead them to be seperated.

The seperated brethren thing is not a load of hooey, they indeed are seperated brethren. when they do the work of the devil in attacking good Christian Society and Culture, however, they open themselves to more harsh words from my perspective.

They are not sharing the gospel; they are luring people away from the true faith with false promises of wealth, they are attempting to turn them into american (US) style individualists when it comes to religion. It's not just a KJV bible and a slightly scewed message, it's a message that says "abandon all that is beautiful about your culture because it is strange ot us" and "seperate yourself from the oppressive intricate unity of your communities and follow an individualistic relationship with Jesus"... the "Jesus" they peddel is nothing more than a what-you-want-him-to-be imaginary friend, though.

this is not about santeria, from what I can tell. if it was an issue of the small sect of santeria, I would be on budge's side in wanting it rid of. But these are simply good and beautiful cultural practices which have been redirected towards Christ. If you side with budge's pet missionaries on stuff like the day of the dead, you might as well side with fundies on stuff like Christmas, because that was the redirection of the Winter Solstice; or The Nativity of St. John the Baptist, the redirection of the Summer Solstice.

[adt6247]

[quote name='Budge' post='1372356' date='Aug 28 2007, 12:17 PM']Youre helping my case when I say that ecumenicalism is Rome's iron fist in a velvet glove, I suppose at least you are being honest.[/quote]
Ecumenism has one -- and ONLY one -- goal: to bring schismatic and heretical sects back in line with Rome, so they may achieve salvation. Many members of the hierarchy are liberal themselves, and have a desire to preach claptrap that amounts to universalism, but the Catholic Church is the one and only Church of Christ on earth. No one else can legitimately make that claim. Even the Eastern Orthodox, who have valid apostolic authority, are separated from us in a state of schism -- and hopefully this will be corrected in our lifetime.

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote]you might as well side with fundies on stuff like Christmas, because that was the redirection of the Winter Solstice; or The Nativity of St. John the Baptist, the redirection of the Summer Solstice.[/quote]

On other boards [i]"I believe"[/i] Budge has stated wearing slacks, jewerly etc... is evil, correct me if I am wrong, Budge.

Not to mention that one of the moderator's on her board has even gone to the extent of claiming that visiting your loved one's at their grave site is nemocrancy.

Edited August 28, 2007 by "Kyrie eleison"

[Budge]

[quote]Budge, all you did was prove my point that you do not understand the culture. [u]You call them "thugs" because they are different than you and result to a more dirct approach than picking up a picket sign, because they still do what men have always done when their cultures were attacked (Christian men as well).[/u][/quote]

Well going by your logic, then Americans could burn down Catholic churches {not defending this behavior at all like you are!!} since they came to a Prot nation!

Cant you see what youre defending here? What is wrong with you fella? People that committ arson, over someone saying something they dont "like" are THUGS.

Oh by the way there are Bible Christians born again, and living for Christ and rejecting paganism who are NOT AMERICANS and many are indeed Latin American, a weird hole in your logic that seems to be constantly cropping up.

Edited August 28, 2007 by Budge

[Budge]

[quote]On other boards "I believe" Budge has stated wearing slacks, jewerly etc... is evil, correct me if I am wrong, Budge.[/quote]

What does this have to do with the topic at hand?


Where did you get that stuff, or is that from your caricature of a fundies in your head. I havent talked about either issue on here at all. I believe in modest dress and for a woman that can be pants....depending on the circumstances.

[quote]Not to mention that one of the moderator's on her board has even gone to the extent of claiming that visiting your loved one's at their grave site is nemocrancy.[/quote]


I checked with Tan who used to participate here, and YES, Tan still holds that you are NECROMANTICS venerating the dead "officially" and dabbling with "familiar spirits"--Tan ex-Phatmasser.

Edited August 28, 2007 by Budge

[prose]

[quote name='Budge' post='1372331' date='Aug 28 2007, 09:13 AM']You know what is interesting about this thread, is not one Catholic poster here is upset that their co-religionists are thugs out burning churches.

If I knew of fund. Baptists doing this Id be disgusted and have written threads on my board against Baptists behaving badly...

What is the deal with the folks here they feel they have to take the defensive position over everyone that is Catholic?[/quote]

I am not upset because they are not Catholic. Just because you call yourself something does not make one that. If someone is not in line with Rome and is not practicing Catholicism, they are not Catholic. No matter what they call themselves. You said yourself they are practicing some sort of pagan religion mixed with Catholicism. That is not Catholic, and therefore they are not Catholic.

They are not my "co-religionist".

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Budge' post='1372653' date='Aug 28 2007, 07:05 PM']Where did you get that stuff, or is that from your caricature of a fundies in your head.[/quote]I don't know about everyone else, but my imagination couldn't even produce a "fundy caricature" that was as far out in left field as Budge.

["Kyrie eleison"]

QUOTE
On other boards "I believe" Budge has stated wearing slacks, jewerly etc... is evil, correct me if I am wrong, Budge.


[quote]What does this have to do with the topic at hand?[/quote]

It has everything to do with the topic at hand. With fundies it is either black or white, with no grey in between.

[quote]Where did you get that stuff, or is that from your caricature of a fundies in your head. I haven't talked about either issue on here at all. I believe in modest dress and for a woman that can be pants....depending on the circumstances.[/quote]

There are baptists and pentecostal who I know personally that won't wear pants/slacks and no jewerly. Some women won't even cut /style their hair or wear make-up, for fear of being labeled a JEZEBEL by their pastor.

[Aloysius]

[quote name='Budge' post='1372645' date='Aug 28 2007, 06:59 PM']Well going by your logic, then Americans could burn down Catholic churches {not defending this behavior at all like you are!!} since they came to a Prot nation!

Cant you see what youre defending here? What is wrong with you fella? People that committ arson, over someone saying something they dont "like" are THUGS.

Oh by the way there are Bible Christians born again, and living for Christ and rejecting paganism who are NOT AMERICANS and many are indeed Latin American, a weird hole in your logic that seems to be constantly cropping up.[/quote]
American culture is very different than Mexican culture. It is by nature pluralistic, whilst Mexican culture is much more homogenous. Homogenous societies react very badly when their sons and daughters are made to hate their own culture by outsiders who think their culture is better. Besides, Catholics are not attacking American protestant culture, nor any culture of any protestant nation, they are not destroying it the way your missionaries are. we're want them to convert and bring their unique experience and culture as Americans into the Church of Jesus Christ. your missionaries want the latin americans to break all ties with their towns' festivals and traditions, reject everything about their culture that you think is strange by convincing them it is pagan, heathenous, and evil.

It is not a hole in my logic, the latin americans you speak of are being deceived by missionaries like these; really, they're getting sucked into the paradigm of capitalism more often than not, being currupted by the influence media and big business have all over the world which causes them to reject what their parents raised them to believe and seek out something different. this vulnerability is preyed upon by protestant missionaries who wrench them completely out of their culture and teach them to believe that it is evil and pagan. why is it that it is not until now, when every culture in the world is breaking apart due to the media's influence, your protestant missionaries have finally started having success in getting latin americans to follow their heresies? seems plain to me; we can see it everywhere: in arabia a homogenous culture is being torn apart because of the influence of the market of western civilization making each generation more and more like us and less and less like their parents, which is why there is such a huge backlash against them.

[quote name='prose' post='1372657' date='Aug 28 2007, 07:11 PM']I am not upset because they are not Catholic. Just because you call yourself something does not make one that. If someone is not in line with Rome and is not practicing Catholicism, they are not Catholic. No matter what they call themselves. You said yourself they are practicing some sort of pagan religion mixed with Catholicism. That is not Catholic, and therefore they are not Catholic.

They are not my "co-religionist".[/quote]
I am working off the not-too-far-off assumption that these are indeed Catholics, and that the fundies see the fact that they maintain their culture as evidence that they are "pagan"; you know, the way Christmas is pagan. They call them pagan because of their day of the dead practices, hardly true. they are your co-religionists. but I could be wrong, there does exist some stuff like santeria that would make them indeed not our co-religionists, but heretical thorns in our side. but to a fundy missionary, it all seems pagan, including the day of the dead (which is really just a good festival very poignent around All Souls Day.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

i agree with you Al. i know Santeria is practiced in mexico, but it is so small that it doesn't show up on any census, and is not even reported.


Fundementalists have always claimed that Catholicism (in itself) is part pagan (christmas, Easter, Halloween, Day of the dead, "saint Worship"), when in fact it is mostly about culture.

[mariahLVzJP2]

Great posts Aloysius!