Pope: "we Will Be Judged By Our Works"

[Fidei Defensor]

Budge, by insisting that we are not judged based on our works, you've taken the title of Judge from God. How can he judge if he has nothing to base his judgment upon? Jesus already said that not everyone who calls him Lord will be saved. You can't judge solely on faith. There has to be something else...

[stbernardLT]

John 3:36 (NAB) "Whoever [b][i]believes[/i][[/b] in the Son has eternal life, but whoever [b][i]disobeys[/i][/b] the son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him."

By reading this we can honestly say that to believe(faith) and to obey(works, such as the ten commandments) are forever connected in the promise of Salvation.

Edited September 2, 2007 by stbernardLT

[journeyman]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1372376' date='Aug 28 2007, 10:59 AM']i've never seen budge engage in critical thought/dialouge. more than just posting things that helps to show her case, but negating others etc.
i think she has a thought and posts it, but either can't or won't actually challenge it. i think it's more that she's just made up her mind, end of discussion.[/quote]


On the plus side for Budge's style of posting - it shows that Catholics on this phorum are not totally ignorant of the Bible . . . . . . and often make better arguments for Budge than she made for herself in the process of knocking them down

[dairygirl4u2c]

to argue budges posotion though. even if santification is essentially the same in both prot and catho circles, except that the sanctification adds to teh justification of catholics. you need to be justified to be saved right? even if they are not the same thing. and even if in the end you cannot justify your self completely even when cooperating with grace. you must cooperate to get to the final grace of justification.
maybe prots should say cooperate instead of work, as catholics tend to get hung up on the word "works". if you must cooperate to be justified, even if its' just a technical difference between the two groups, then you could argue that goes against....

galatians.... "for it is by grace that ye are saved, not of works, lest any man should boast" or is that ephisians

of course catholics say it's not works, ie not works without the grace of God. but saying you're cooperating wit the grace could be argued as essentially going against the passage. hence prots saying the cooperation with grace thing is a subtle but damnable heresy.

of course, the catho view isn't that far off. especially given all the works passages cited here, and James.

Edited September 3, 2007 by dairygirl4u2c

[Socrates]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1376956' date='Sep 3 2007, 11:43 AM']to argue budges posotion though. even if santification is essentially the same in both prot and catho circles, except that the sanctification adds to teh justification of catholics. you need to be justified to be saved right? even if they are not the same thing. and even if in the end you cannot justify your self completely even when cooperating with grace. you must cooperate to get to the final grace of justification.
maybe prots should say cooperate instead of work, as catholics tend to get hung up on the word "works". if you must cooperate to be justified, even if its' just a technical difference between the two groups, then you could argue that goes against....

galatians.... "for it is by grace that ye are saved, not of works, lest any man should boast" or is that ephisians

of course catholics say it's not works, ie not works without the grace of God. but saying you're cooperating wit the grace could be argued as essentially going against the passage. hence prots saying the cooperation with grace thing is a subtle but damnable heresy.

of course, the catho view isn't that far off. especially given all the works passages cited here, and James.[/quote]
A good explanation is in the Parable of the Talents (Matt. 25:14-30; Luke 19:12-28). It's more than just an economics lesson.
The Talents symbolize the grace given to Christians by Christ. Christ (the Master in the parable) gives graces to us which we did nothing to earn. However, we must choose whether to use our graces productively or not, and will be judged thereon. We must make good use of the grace God gives to be saved.

[Budge]

[quote]. We must make good use of the grace God gives to be saved.[/quote]

This statement negates the idea of grace. Grace is something that is freely given not based on conditions!

The talents parable is about Christians using what they are given...Holy Spirit leading them in santification, they will lose rewards in heaven to squander those things.

[prose]

Acts 9:36...

If good works are not, well "good", why was Tabitha raised and rewarded for being full of good works?

[quote]36Now there was at Joppa a certain disciple named Tabitha, which by interpretation is called Dorcas: this woman was full of good works and almsdeeds which she did.

37And it came to pass in those days, that she was sick, and died: whom when they had washed, they laid her in an upper chamber.

38And forasmuch as Lydda was nigh to Joppa, and the disciples had heard that Peter was there, they sent unto him two men, desiring him that he would not delay to come to them.

39Then Peter arose and went with them. When he was come, they brought him into the upper chamber: and all the widows stood by him weeping, and shewing the coats and garments which Dorcas made, while she was with them.

40But Peter put them all forth, and kneeled down, and prayed; and turning him to the body said, Tabitha, arise. And she opened her eyes: and when she saw Peter, she sat up.

41And he gave her his hand, and lifted her up, and when he had called the saints and widows, presented her alive.

42And it was known throughout all Joppa; and many believed in the Lord.[/quote]

Edited September 4, 2007 by prose

[dairygirl4u2c]

speaking from a catholic perspective, that ephisians verse in my last post is a thorn in the side. but from a rational perspective, how can so much rest on that one verse? i think i could say this, because without that one verse, it's debatable the faith and works debate, reasonably. i'd even lean towards to works arguments.
theoretically speaking.

can anyone else argue from the catholic perspective without esentially saying... "it's not "works"... it's "cooperating"

Edited September 4, 2007 by dairygirl4u2c

[Jaime]

Say what you want about Budge


She does seem to bring us all together

[Socrates]

[quote name='Budge' post='1377881' date='Sep 4 2007, 02:24 PM']This statement negates the idea of grace. Grace is something that is freely given not based on conditions!

The talents parable is about Christians using what they are given...Holy Spirit leading them in santification, they will lose rewards in heaven to squander those things.[/quote]
Christ freely chooses to give us grace. What we do with it is our choice. We must properly use and grow in God's grace by doing such things as spreading the Gospel and doing good works. (And I believe more than enough Bible passages have been cited in this thread to prove the importance of works).
If we squander the grace Christ gave us by slothful inactivity and sin, we lose the that grace.

Grace is not earned by our works, but our active cooperation is required if we want salvation.
"Once Saved Always Saved" is not Biblical.

[Socrates]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1377985' date='Sep 4 2007, 03:54 PM']Say what you want about Budge
She does seem to bring us all together [/quote]
I feel so warm and fuzzy.