Pope: "we Will Be Judged By Our Works"

[Socrates]

[quote name='Budge' post='1371627' date='Aug 27 2007, 12:12 PM']That refers to the nations, not to individuals.[/quote]
This has got to be one of the stupidest "interpretations" I have read, even from Budge.

When it says Christ will gather all nations before Him, this means that all people from all over the world--all nations--will be judged, not just a limited group. It is individual souls that will be judged.

Matt. 25:35-36:[quote]For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink: I was a stranger, and you took me in, naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me.[/quote]
It is individuals, not nations, that feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, visit the sick and imprisoned, etc.

"Well, I ended up having to spend a week in the slammer, but it was good that the Czech Republic came and visited me, then when I was thirsty, South Korea came and gave me a cold drink,"

It is individual persons, not nations, that will be held responsible and judged for their works of mercy (unless you want to take the "liberal Christian" view that only society in the collective, not individuals, are responsible for works of charity, and that we will be judged on who has the biggest welfare system, free health care, etc.)

Matt. 25:46:[quote]And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.[/quote]
Even more importantly, it is individual souls, not nations, that are damned or saved, that have everlasting punishment or eternal life.

(Unless, of course, you believe that nations are eternally damned or saved[i] en masse[/i]. - "Thank God I'm a U.S. citizen, so I'm saved, brother! Too bad about France!")

In any case, it makes absolutely no sense to say that the deeds of persons will have no role in their eternal salvation or damnation, but those of nations will.

Let's also not forget these Bible passages:

Titus 1:16:[quote]They profess that they know God; [b]but in works they deny him[/b], being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.[/quote]

Titus 3:8:[quote]This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that [b]they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.[/b][/quote]

Philipians 2:12:[quote]Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only but much more now in my absence) [b]with fear and trembling work out your salvation[/b].[/quote]

James 2:14-26:[quote][b]What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?[/b]
If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
[b]For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also[/b].[/quote]

But I guess we're supposed to all just ignore our Bibles, and trust in the Infallible Opinon of Budge instead.

Edited August 28, 2007 by Socrates

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1371961' date='Aug 27 2007, 09:38 PM']what i said is what i heard before. but i suppose another way you could look at that.... by not sinning you're increasing in justification. but i don't see how not sinning could cause you to incrase in justification. i think in terms of a bowl that needs filled to be justified. i guess you could look at it as, the bowl is right bc of jesus, and you justify keeping hte bowl that way by not sinning. (mortally that is)

which scenario is right to you guys as catholics?[/quote]If you don't mind another image to compare with justification:

Maybe it would be better to compare it with a path. It may take a single step to get onto the path or off it; but, we spend our lives--step by step--remaining on the path.

As far as an "increase in justification" caused by not sinning goes, I would say that this is probably related to the temptations we receive. I may not be able to merit an increase in justification for not killing anybody today because there was no temptation to do so. But, if am tempted to anger and don't succumb to the impulse, than I think that I have grown in virtue, grace, and justification...and that God for it.

Does that make sense?

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Paddington' post='1371900' date='Aug 27 2007, 07:50 PM']Prose,

How is that not Catholic tho?

BTW, Prose was responding to Budge's "Catholics can lose salvation due to one sin."

Perhaps I'd better describe it as, "one too many sins."

Peace,
Paddington[/quote]Just to quote a little more from the Council of Trent:[quote][size=5]On Justification[/size]

[size=4]CHAPTER XII. [/size]
[size=4]That a rash presumptuousness in the matter of Predestination is to be avoided. [/size]
No one, moreover, so long as he is in this mortal life, ought so far to presume as regards the secret mystery of divine predestination, as to determine for certain that he is assuredly in [Page 40] the number of the predestinate; as if it were true, that he that is justified, either cannot sin any more, or, if he do sin, that he ought to promise himself an assured repentance; for except by special revelation, it cannot be known whom God hath chosen unto Himself.


[size=4]CHAPTER XIII. [/size]
[size=4]On the gift of Perseverance. [/size]
So also as regards the gift of perseverance, of which it is written, He that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved:-which gift cannot be derived from any other but Him, who is able to establish him who standeth that he stand perseveringly, and to restore him who falleth:-let no one herein promise himself any thing as certain with an absolute certainty; though all ought to place and repose a most firm hope in God's help. For God, unless men be themselves wanting to His grace, as he has begun the good work, so will he perfect it, working (in them) to will and to accomplish. Nevertheless, let those who think themselves to stand, take heed lest they fall, and, with fear and trembling work out their salvation, in labours, in watchings, in almsdeeds, in prayers and oblations, in fastings and chastity: for, knowing that they are born again unto a hope of glory, but not as yet unto glory, they ought to fear for the combat which yet remains with the flesh, with the world, with the devil, wherein they cannot be victorious, unless they be with God's grace, obedient to the Apostle, who says; We are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh; for if you live according to the flesh, you shall die; but if by the spirit you mortify the deeds of the flesh, you shall live.[/quote]In other words, we don't presume on our salvation, but we do have "firm hope" in God's abundant grace and mercy.

[Socrates]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' post='1371784' date='Aug 27 2007, 03:40 PM']Soooooo.... because a lot of websites appear on the Internet that have "Sheep and Goat Nations" in their title, that means that this is correct? We are to trust everything that we read on the Internet?[/quote]
It included this very important link, [url="http://www.fao.org/DOCREP/004/X6532E/X6532E00.HTM"]sheep and goat breeds of india[/url] ("1.6 Earlier descriptions of Indian breeds of [b]sheep and goats [/b]... and Health Division of the Food and Agriculture Organization of the United [b]Nations[/b], ..."), which is obviously vitally important to understanding the [i]real[/i] meaning of this Biblical prophecy!

It's a U.N. document concerning sheep and goat breeding in India (could there be a secret Mother Theresa connection?!), which is undoubtably part of an evil Popish U.N. plot of the Nephilim to bring about a Romish New World Order through illicitely creating fiendish sheep/goat/human hybrids!

[quote]Applications for such permission, with a statement of the purpose and extent of the reproduction, should be addressed to the Director, Publications Division, Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations, [b]Via delle Terme di Caracalla, 00100 Rome, Italy[/b].

FOOD AND AGRICULTURE ORGANIZATION OF THE UNITED NATIONS
[b]Rome [/b]© FAO 1982[/quote]
The Romish/Popish connection is obvious, as this fiendish U.N. so-called "FOOD AND AGRICULTURE ORGANIZATION" is based in . . . [b]ROME!!!!! [/b](I hope I've included an adequate number of exlamation points there.)
These hellish Romish pagan human/goat hybrid United Nations of the Anti-Christ Whore of Babylon will be condemned to eternal flame, while only the sheepish followers of God's own Jack Chick shall be saved.

Edited August 28, 2007 by Socrates

[Budge]

[quote]The Romish/Popish connection is obvious, as this fiendish U.N. so-called "FOOD AND AGRICULTURE ORGANIZATION" is based in . . . ROME!!!!! (I hope I've included an adequate number of exlamation points there.)[/quote]

Hmm why is the UN butting their nose into sheep and goat breeding?

Is an encyclical on animal husbandry to go with the driving one, NEXT?

I wouldnt doubt there is a popish connection to [url="http://technocrat.net/d/2006/4/7/2165"]THIS.[/url]

Edited August 28, 2007 by Budge

[Budge]

[quote]These hellish Romish pagan human/goat hybrid United Nations of the Anti-Christ Whore of Babylon will be condemned to eternal flame, while only the sheepish followers of God's own Jack Chick shall be saved.[/quote]

You expect to share heaven with hybrids?

[Socrates]

I find it telling that Budge has only responded to my silly joke/parody post, while blatantly ignoring [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s=&showtopic=72107&view=findpost&p=1371987"]Post #46 [/url]concerning Biblical passages (as well as everyone else's posting of relevant Biblical passages).

[homeschoolmom]

What else can she do?

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1372027' date='Aug 27 2007, 10:11 PM']It included this very important link, [url="http://www.fao.org/DOCREP/004/X6532E/X6532E00.HTM"]sheep and goat breeds of india[/url] ("1.6 Earlier descriptions of Indian breeds of [b]sheep and goats [/b]... and Health Division of the Food and Agriculture Organization of the United [b]Nations[/b], ..."), which is obviously vitally important to understanding the [i]real[/i] meaning of this Biblical prophecy!

It's a U.N. document concerning sheep and goat breeding in India (could there be a secret Mother Theresa connection?!), which is undoubtably part of an evil Popish U.N. plot of the Nephilim to bring about a Romish New World Order through illicitely creating fiendish sheep/goat/human hybrids!
The Romish/Popish connection is obvious, as this fiendish U.N. so-called "FOOD AND AGRICULTURE ORGANIZATION" is based in . . . [b]ROME!!!!! [/b](I hope I've included an adequate number of exlamation points there.)
These hellish Romish pagan human/goat hybrid United Nations of the Anti-Christ Whore of Babylon will be condemned to eternal flame, while only the sheepish followers of God's own Jack Chick shall be saved.[/quote]

You almost make it sound like Judgment Day is being outsourced to India along with everything else.

[beatty07]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1371588' date='Aug 27 2007, 12:01 PM']beatty,

I have to disagree a bit. Eph 3:20-21 says that the good that we do is the power of God working in and through us. When one separates the good that we do from the merritts of Christ a false dichotomy is created. Our works in Christ are him working in us. We would not do them without his grace. We have no need to shy away from them or put them down (as those do who call God's work in and through us "filthy rags"" for they proclaim the glory of God to the world when done in faith in Jesus Christ. Christ is what God wants to see when we meet him. Christ does good in and through us and that is what will be seen when we stand before the throne. There is no need to separate this from our salvation. Initial justification is totally by grace without works but we remain in his grace by allowing his grace to be completed in our lives through the good that we do. If we do not do the good we will fall away and be lost. That is how it fits in to the salvation equation.[/quote]

Ah, great point...thank you.

[dairygirl4u2c]

i've never seen budge engage in critical thought/dialouge. more than just posting things that helps to show her case, but negating others etc.
i think she has a thought and posts it, but either can't or won't actually challenge it. i think it's more that she's just made up her mind, end of discussion.

["Kyrie eleison"]

Jesus made it very clear. Whatever you do to the [b]least [/b]of my brethren, you do it to me.
Give a glass of water, you give it to me.

[kenrockthefirst]

[i]For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw -- each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.[/i]

1 Cor. 3:11-15

'Nuff said.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='Budge' post='1371547' date='Aug 27 2007, 11:13 AM']how many Catholics here believe it when your church tells you that "no, we do not believe works save you" How many of you have told me the same thing? Well here the Pope goes and says the complete opposite.


The Pope here makes clear that he sees this "passport' of personal virtues [and works] as necessary to "gain entry" into heaven.[/quote]


St. John 3:19
9 And this is the verdict, that the light came into the world, but people preferred darkness to light, because their [b]works [/b]were evil.
20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come toward the light, so that his works might not be exposed.
21 But whoever lives the truth comes to the light, so that his [b]works [/b]may be clearly seen as done in God.


St. Matt 25:45 He will answer them, 'Amen, I say to you, [b]what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me[/b].'
46 And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."


St. Matt 16:24
19 Then Jesus said to his disciples, "Whoever wishes to come after [b]me must deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me.[/b] ([i]wow... we MUST WORK?! - Yes[/i])
25 For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. 21
26 What profit would there be for one to gain the whole world and forfeit his life? Or what can one give in exchange for his life?
27 For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father's glory, and then [b]he will repay everyone according to his conduct.[/b]


St. Luke 12:47
That servant who knew his master's will [b]but did not make[/b] preparations nor act in accord with his will shall be beaten severely;
48 and the servant who was ignorant of his master's will but acted in a way deserving of a severe beating shall be beaten only lightly. Much will be required of the person entrusted with much, and still more will be demanded of the person entrusted with more.

Acts 15:11
On the contrary, we believe that we are [b]saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus[/b], in the same way as they.

2 Corin 11:15
So it is not strange that his ministers also masquerade as ministers of righteousness. [b]Their end will correspond to their deeds. [/b]





do = "work"


We will be judged by our works.

We are saved through grace because Christ died for us.


Salvation and judgement are two different things.


St. Matt 16:27 [color="#FF0000"]For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father's glory, and then [b]he will repay everyone according to his conduct.[/b] [/color]


If you knew the bible, you wouldn't try to go with this attack budge.


God Bless,
ironmonk

Edited September 2, 2007 by ironmonk

[Dismas]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1371961' date='Aug 27 2007, 08:38 PM']she shouldn't get tied up on hte sheep and the goats. there's also the quotes for works i provided.

you should also remember the canons from Trent which said... that good works cause you to increase in justification.
what i said is what i heard before. but i suppose another way you could look at that.... by not sinning you're increasing in justification. but i don't see how not sinning could cause you to incrase in justification. i think in terms of a bowl that needs filled to be justified. i guess you could look at it as, the bowl is right bc of jesus, and you justify keeping hte bowl that way by not sinning. (mortally that is)

which scenario is right to you guys as catholics?[/quote]

Every time we sin, venially, that bowl cracks, and some of the water seeps out. Now, should we sin mortally, the bowl is smashed, and all the water is gone. How do we fix this? Sacraments.

By eating (word used actually suggests chewing/gnawing, but that sounded too gross to translate literally) the flesh (word used refers to a hunk of meat, but translators are squeamish) and drinking the blood of the Son of Man, that grace is renewed and replenished. By our confessing to a priest, who is ordained into the ministry of the Kingdom of Heaven, the damages to our souls are repaired, and our ability to hold to that grace is ever improved. Likewise all seven sacraments fill us with grace.

This is how we run to the finish line. What the finish line is in Budge's world, I don't know, since her religion says "once saved, always saved". Well, where's the urgency in that?