thessalonian Posted August 27, 2007 Share Posted August 27, 2007 It never ceases to amaze me how many DIFFERENT excues are used to put down God working in and through us (eph 3:20-21) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mateo el Feo Posted August 27, 2007 Share Posted August 27, 2007 [quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1371665' date='Aug 27 2007, 03:01 PM']i think a good way to describe it in layman terms.... catholic: there's only so much i can do... prot: there's nothing i can do... but even that simplication can make a prot think you are earning in the esne of a scale. that's simply not the case.[/quote]I don't think I'd agree with this description. I suppose I'd say that there is nothing we can do to earn salvation, but plenty we can do to earn damnation (pick your favorite sin). I'm thinking of when Our Lord tells us we can't serve two masters. Some canons from Trent (Session 6):[quote]ON JUSTIFICATION CANON I.-If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema. CANON II.-If any one saith, that the grace of God, through Jesus Christ, is given only for this, that man may be able more easily to live justly, and to merit eternal life, as if, by free will without grace, he were able to do both, though hardly indeed and with difficulty; let him be anathema. CANON XIX.-If any one saith, that nothing besides faith is commanded in the Gospel; that other things are indifferent, neither commanded nor prohibited, but free; or, that the ten commandments nowise appertain to Christians; let him be anathema. CANON XX.-If any one saith, that the man who is justified and how perfect soever, is not bound to observe the commandments of God and of the Church, but only to believe; as if indeed the Gospel were a bare and absolute promise of eternal life, without the condition of observing the commandments ; let him be anathema. CANON XXI.-If any one saith, that Christ Jesus was given of God to men, as a redeemer in whom to trust, and not also as a legislator whom to obey; let him be anathema.[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thessalonian Posted August 27, 2007 Share Posted August 27, 2007 " I'd say that there is nothing [b]WE[/b] can do to earn salvation" If the emphasis is on the we, apart from Christ I agree. But Christ working in and through us (eph 3:20-21) has real power. It is that power that Matt 25 and Romans 2:4-8 speak of. Protestants must deny and excuse away these passages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prose Posted August 27, 2007 Share Posted August 27, 2007 [quote name='Budge' post='1371627' date='Aug 27 2007, 12:12 PM']Salvation for a Catholic is conditional to the day they die and can be lost due to one sin.[/quote] I know several Catholics that believe this, so I know why you may get that impression. [quote name='Budge' post='1371627' date='Aug 27 2007, 12:12 PM']IF your salvation in Catholicism was utterly dependent on the merit of Christ, what need of Purgatory?[/quote] Purgatory does not "get" us into heaven. Nor is my salvation based on purgatory. It is for my own purification, not my justification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Budge Posted August 27, 2007 Author Share Posted August 27, 2007 [quote]Can you substantiate this assertion or is this more Budge b.c.? My money is on the latter.[/quote] Committ a mortal sin, right before you die fulfilling all the qualifications as taught by the Catholic church for a mortal and grievous sin, no last rites, no confession, no repentance, and according to the Catholic Church, youre on your way to hell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Budge Posted August 27, 2007 Author Share Posted August 27, 2007 [url="http://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&channel=s&hl=en&q=Sheep+and+goats+and+nations&btnG=Google+Search"]JUDGEMENT OF NATIONS[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homeschoolmom Posted August 27, 2007 Share Posted August 27, 2007 [quote name='Budge' post='1371762' date='Aug 27 2007, 04:27 PM'][url="http://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&channel=s&hl=en&q=Sheep+and+goats+and+nations&btnG=Google+Search"]JUDGEMENT OF NATIONS[/url][/quote] Soooooo.... because a lot of websites appear on the Internet that have "Sheep and Goat Nations" in their title, that means that this is correct? We are to trust everything that we read on the Internet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thessalonian Posted August 27, 2007 Share Posted August 27, 2007 [quote]Salvation for a Catholic is conditional to the day they die and can be lost due to one sin.[/quote] I would find it problematic if someone shot someone in cold blood and still was in good standing with God if on the day he did the deed he died with no repentence. Maybe you say that can't happen. I don't see any such promise in the bible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norseman82 Posted August 27, 2007 Share Posted August 27, 2007 [quote name='Mateo el Feo' post='1371689' date='Aug 27 2007, 02:28 PM']Maybe Budge thinks nations have eternal souls that can end up in hell. Her religion probably hasn't decided whether zip codes have souls or not.[/quote] What about area codes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mateo el Feo Posted August 27, 2007 Share Posted August 27, 2007 [quote name='Budge' post='1371759' date='Aug 27 2007, 05:24 PM']Committ a mortal sin, right before you die fulfilling all the qualifications as taught by the Catholic church for a mortal and grievous sin, no last rites, no confession, no repentance, and according to the Catholic Church, youre on your way to hell.[/quote]As opposed to Budgianity, in which you do your altar call to get "Saved" (tm), proceed to commit unspeakable sins with no repentance, and then die, only to end up in heaven. Yeah, that's justice. LOL Honestly, with phrases like "fulfilling all the qualifications," you continue to lack any hint of credibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mateo el Feo Posted August 27, 2007 Share Posted August 27, 2007 [quote name='thessalonian' post='1371791' date='Aug 27 2007, 05:44 PM']I would find it problematic if someone shot someone in cold blood and still was in good standing with God if on the day he did the deed he died with no repentence. Maybe you say that can't happen. I don't see any such promise in the bible.[/quote]If she thought her beliefs were remotely biblical, you'd think she'd do us the favor of providing a quote with chapter and verse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mateo el Feo Posted August 27, 2007 Share Posted August 27, 2007 [quote name='homeschoolmom' post='1371784' date='Aug 27 2007, 05:40 PM']Soooooo.... because a lot of websites appear on the Internet that have "Sheep and Goat Nations" in their title, that means that this is correct? We are to trust everything that we read on the Internet?[/quote]Quoting the first link (an evangelical website):[quote]And don't let the word nations fool you. It's only used to explain that this is a worldwide event. The Lord holds everyone personally accountable for his or her behavior.[/quote]The words "all nations" simply means that it's not just a particular nation/race (e.g. Jews) being judged. It's a universal judgment. News flash: Evangelicals reject another tenet of Budgianity, while accepting the Catholic interpretation of the phrase "all nations" in Matt 25. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddington Posted August 27, 2007 Share Posted August 27, 2007 [quote name='prose' post='1371740' date='Aug 27 2007, 06:25 PM']I know several Catholics that believe this, so I know why you may get that impression.[/quote] Prose, How is that not Catholic tho? BTW, Prose was responding to Budge's "Catholics can lose salvation due to one sin." Perhaps I'd better describe it as, "one too many sins." Peace, Paddington Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thessalonian Posted August 27, 2007 Share Posted August 27, 2007 [quote name='Paddington' post='1371900' date='Aug 27 2007, 06:50 PM']Prose, How is that not Catholic tho? BTW, Prose was responding to Budge's "Catholics can lose salvation due to one sin." Perhaps I'd better describe it as, "one too many sins." Peace, Paddington[/quote] I would agree with you paddington, except to say that I believe that it is usually a series of non-damning venial sins that lead to that one mortal sin, which causes a fall from grace. I find this to be the more likely senario considering my life and books I have read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dairygirl4u2c Posted August 28, 2007 Share Posted August 28, 2007 (edited) she shouldn't get tied up on hte sheep and the goats. there's also the quotes for works i provided. you should also remember the canons from Trent which said... that good works cause you to increase in justification. what i said is what i heard before. but i suppose another way you could look at that.... by not sinning you're increasing in justification. but i don't see how not sinning could cause you to incrase in justification. i think in terms of a bowl that needs filled to be justified. i guess you could look at it as, the bowl is right bc of jesus, and you justify keeping hte bowl that way by not sinning. (mortally that is) which scenario is right to you guys as catholics? Edited August 28, 2007 by dairygirl4u2c Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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