Pope: "we Will Be Judged By Our Works"

[thessalonian]

beatty,

I have to disagree a bit. Eph 3:20-21 says that the good that we do is the power of God working in and through us. When one separates the good that we do from the merritts of Christ a false dichotomy is created. Our works in Christ are him working in us. We would not do them without his grace. We have no need to shy away from them or put them down (as those do who call God's work in and through us "filthy rags"" for they proclaim the glory of God to the world when done in faith in Jesus Christ. Christ is what God wants to see when we meet him. Christ does good in and through us and that is what will be seen when we stand before the throne. There is no need to separate this from our salvation. Initial justification is totally by grace without works but we remain in his grace by allowing his grace to be completed in our lives through the good that we do. If we do not do the good we will fall away and be lost. That is how it fits in to the salvation equation.

Edited August 27, 2007 by thessalonian

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='beatty07' post='1371578' date='Aug 27 2007, 12:40 PM']One would have to be semi-literate at best to read even a significant portion of the New Testament without realizing that we will be judged by our works. What could possibly be more clear?

Of course that isn't the same as being saved by our works. Maybe that's the distinction you're missing, Budge?[/quote]Yes, yes, yes, yes, and yes.

Notice that the "saved by works" phrase is Budge's, not the pope's.

Of course, in bearing false witness, Budge is imitating the father of lies, not the Lord of lords.

[tvu_srfan]

There's a difference between being [i]saved [/i]by works and being [i]judged[/i] by works.

Budge you claim that the Pope says we will be judged by our works.

_________________________________
The following has been sourced from David Armstrong's book [url="http://www.amazon.com/Biblical-Defense-Catholicism-Dave-Armstrong/dp/1928832954"][u]A Biblical Defense of Catholicism:[/u][/url]

Refer to:

Matthew 25:31-46
the great scene of the separation of sheep and goats, [b]where Christ continually makes the works of faith the central criterion of judgment. [/b]
(also quote by Jamie)

Luke 18:18-25
where the rich young ruler asked Jesus [i]what he must do to inherit eternal life[/i], [b]Jesus asked if he has kept the Commandments.
[/b]
John 6:27-29
27"Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal."

28Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?"

29Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.

In verses 28 and 29, [i]working[/i] and [i]belief[/i] in Christ are equated, much like[i] obedience[/i] and [i]belief[/i] in John 3:36. In the marvelous phrase "doing the works of God," we see that our works and God's are intertwined if indeed we are doing his will. [b]This is the Catholic viewpoint: an organic connection of both faith and works, and God's unmerited grace coupling with our cooperation and obedience. [/b]

Romans 2:5-13
5But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the [b]righteous judgment of God,[/b]

6[b]who will render each person according to his deeds:[/b]

7to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

8but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.

9There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,

10but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

11For there is no partiality with God.

12For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;

13for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.


_____________________________

Yes, we will be judged by our works. And yes, faith without works is dead. But we do [b]not[/b] believe works will save us. We believe we are saved [i][b]by grace[/b][/i] [i]from [b]faith[/b],[b] working[/b] through love.[/i]

Edited August 27, 2007 by tvu_srfan

[Norseman82]

[quote name='beatty07' post='1371578' date='Aug 27 2007, 11:40 AM']One would have to be semi-literate at best to read even a significant portion of the New Testament without realizing that we will be judged by our works. What could possibly be more clear?

Of course that isn't the same as being saved by our works. Maybe that's the distinction you're missing, Budge? We can be judged by our works, yet it remains the case that our salvation is utterly dependent on the merit of Christ, that no human being on their own could ever merit Heaven or earn Heaven.[/quote]

Some people pick and choose what scriptures to believe in or become their own Popes and take it upon themselves to decide which scripture is to take precedence over another or become like Martin Luther and sct as some scripture is antiligorema (sp?).

Budge, this is one of those 1,438 minutes I referred to some time ago where the stopped clock is not right.

[thessalonian]

I want to remphasize that, while we don't "get saved" by works, they are a part of the salvation equation. Many protesstants (sister budge included) can't comprehend this because they see salvation as a one time even. Like the servant who was given one talent and burried it so he could return it, we will not fair well at judgement if we do not provide at least interest on what God gives us.

[Budge]

[quote]Matthew 25:31-46
the great scene of the separation of sheep and goats, where Christ continually makes the works of faith the central criterion of judgment.
(also quote by Jamie)[/quote]

That refers to the nations, not to individuals.

[quote]Luke 18:18-25
where the rich young ruler asked Jesus what he must do to inherit eternal life, Jesus asked if he has kept the Commandments.[/quote]

Did you miss this part?

Luk 18:18 ¶ And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

Luk 18:19 [b]And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none [is] good, save one, [that is], God.[/b]

[quote]John 6:27-29
27"Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal."

28Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?"

29Jesus answered and said to them, [b]"This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.[/b][/quote]

Very faith based verse.
[quote]In verses 28 and 29, working and belief in Christ are equated, much like obedience and belief in John 3:36. In the marvelous phrase "doing the works of God," we see that our works and God's are intertwined if indeed we are doing his will. This is the Catholic viewpoint: an organic connection of both faith and works, and God's unmerited grace coupling with our cooperation and obedience.[/quote]

Works come out of faith.

The problem with Catholicism is that it confuses JUSTIFICATION with SANTIFICATION.
[quote]Yes, we will be judged by our works. And yes, faith without works is dead. But we do not believe works will save us. We believe we are saved by grace from faith, working through love.[/quote]

Is Catholic grace from FAITH?

In fact your church believes sacraments is one of the largest sources of your grace.

I do not think Catholics even define grace the same way a Bible Christian does.

Salvation for a Catholic is conditional to the day they die and can be lost due to one sin.

Salvation for a Christian occurs at the time they believe on Christ, and are born again in Him. Their works come out of this faith and are a sign of it.
[quote]We can be judged by our works, yet it remains the case that our salvation is utterly dependent on the merit of Christ, that no human being on their own could ever merit Heaven or earn Heaven.[/quote]

This isnt true.

IF your salvation in Catholicism was utterly dependent on the merit of Christ, what need of Purgatory? or sacraments or the rest?

and then there is this teaching from the CCC that totally contradicts what you say in the above.
[b]
2027 No one can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods.[/b]

So Gods grace is only good at the origin of conversion and you have to finish the job with works? Even there the idea that others can earn grace for you, is so wrong its not funny.

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='Budge' post='1371627' date='Aug 27 2007, 01:12 PM']That refers to the nations, not to individuals.[/quote]
How do you know this?

[Sojourner]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' post='1371635' date='Aug 27 2007, 12:28 PM']How do you know this?[/quote]
My money is on: The Spirit revealed it to her.

Because, you know, Protestants think the Spirit reveals to each individual what the correct translation of a passage should be. It's not something that is revealed to the Church as a whole for the edification of all.

Edited August 27, 2007 by Terra Firma

[prose]

[quote]"True friendship with Christ," he added, "is expressed by one's way of life: it is expressed by goodness of heart, with humility, meekness and mercy, love of justice and truth, sincere and honest commitment to peace and reconciliation."[/quote]

[kujo]

[quote name='Budge' post='1371627' date='Aug 27 2007, 02:12 PM']Salvation for a Catholic is conditional to the day they die and can be lost due to one sin.[/quote]

Can you substantiate this assertion or is this more Budge b.c.?

My money is on the latter.

[thessalonian]

"That refers to the nations, not to individuals."

Is this your excuse for not believing romans 2:4-8 as well?

[dairygirl4u2c]

and James where he says justification is by works.
it's all about how you reconcile James with Romans that says we are not justified by works.

but Catholics do not believe necessarily that you have like a scale and need so many works. it's simply not defined. they do believe their works help in justifying themselves, as Trent teaches. Prots think sanctification is separate from justification. in both camps you must increase in good works. difference is catholics think the sanctifiation adds to the justification. even catholcis don't teach necessarily you have ot be perfect when you die. (they are silent on how small sins you have are forgiven)
personally it seems like a minor issue if its essentially the same but one thinks the sanctication adds to the justification.

i think a good way to describe it in layman terms....

catholic: there's only so much i can do...
prot: there's nothing i can do...

but even that simplication can make a prot think you are earning in the esne of a scale. that's simply not the case.

[dairygirl4u2c]

Romans 2:5-10
5But according to your hardness [fig., obstinacy] and impenitent heart, you are storing up for yourself wrath in [the] day of wrath and of revelation and of [the] righteous judgment of God, 6who[b] ‘will render to each [person] according to his works,' [Psalm 62:12; Prov 24:12[/b]] 7to the [ones] on the one hand [who] by perseverance of good work seek glory and honor and incorruptibility [or, immortality], eternal life; 8but on the other hand to the [ones who are] selfishly ambitious and [who are] refusing to believe the truth, but obey unrighteousness, anger and wrath, 9affliction and distress upon every soul of a person, the one working the evil, both of Jew first and of Greek; 10but glory and honor and peace to every [one who] works the good, both to Jew first and to Greek. 11For [there] is no accepting of faces [fig., prejudice] with God.

The scriptures teach that all of us will be judged according to our works: "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works" (Revelation 20:12; see also D&C 76:111; 1 Nephi 15:32; Abraham 3:25-28).


of course you say the judgment is in regards to santification and reward. whereas they say it's in regard to justification. which is somewhat significant. but, just as long as you aren't saying it's a scale type tyhing.

it's not like the justification is anymore tied to salvation than santification is in prot circles. this is because if you do not have good works in prots, you are not saved. you may have to increase at a certain rate or something in catholic, but you assuredly would have to in prots right? even if it doens't apply to salvation, because it's still the evidence of a faith.

[Jaime]

[quote](Budge @ Aug 27 2007, 01:12 PM) *
That refers to the nations, not to individuals.[/quote]

You sure its nations? How do you know its not zip codes?

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1371685' date='Aug 27 2007, 03:23 PM']You sure its nations? How do you know its not zip codes?[/quote]Maybe Budge thinks nations have eternal souls that can end up in hell. Her religion probably hasn't decided whether zip codes have souls or not.