Us Troops In Mortal Sin? Supporting Troops Also Sinful?

[Era Might]

If the troops believe what they are doing is right (and the mission of the nation is immoral), does that mean the citizens should support the troops?

I'm not trying to box you in, I'm trying to determine what you believe on this general issue, because it gets to the heart of the discussion about supporting the troops, and how that relates to an unjust war.

[XIX]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1370669' date='Aug 25 2007, 09:18 PM']The fool who wrote that first letter is a complete moron.
Besides making a number of rather dubious pronouncements (such as that only the U.N., rather than the U.S., could be a "competent authority") and regurgitated liberal anti-American tripe,[/quote]
I believe it is appropriate to point out here that there is such a thing as regurgitated conservative tripe.

[curtins]

woah- before we get into that lets remember that the just war theory is merely an opinion. It is not doctrine that needs to be believed by Catholics- thus I believe this war/mission is certainly justified.

There are certainly some wars that are immoral. Just because a war (such as the iraq war) flunks the just war criteria, doesn't make it immoral.

But to answer the question- yes I believe the citizens should support the troops even if the Pope's opinion is different. It is not a matter of faith that is infalliable and must be believed. I believe the citizens should decide for themselves if the war is justifed. I beleive it is because the evidence (without getting into it all) is and was very clear, thus I support the mission, I support the troops, I support the war.

I highly respect the Pope's opinion but I must respectfully disagree here. With all due respect, I am an American and this war is about my future, my freedom, my safety and that of my kids and grandkids.

[Maggyie]

If I was an annoying and shallow member of the secular press and I was following this thread, I would immediately ask: So was Pope Benedict in mortal sin when he served in the Nazi army?

Of course, he was conscripted, not a volunteer. But if serving the German cause in an unjust war constituted a mortal sin, one would imagine that any good Catholic would have done everything to avoid it.

My grandfather also was conscripted into the German army out of his village in what is now Romania. He served on the Russian front. Obviously Hitler's insane desire to dominate the world, including the Soviet Union, was not a good justification to wage war on the poor Russian populace. But my family does not consider my grandfather's service sinful or something to be ashamed of. It's hard to explain, but we don't. Maybe because he was "drafted," not a big fan of the Third Reich, just avoiding the camps?

Hmm. Interesting.

Edited August 26, 2007 by Maggie

[Era Might]

[quote name='curtins' post='1370721' date='Aug 25 2007, 09:07 PM']There are certainly some wars that are immoral. Just because a war (such as the iraq war) flunks the just war criteria, doesn't make it immoral.[/quote]
If a war does not meet the criteria of the just war principles set out by the Church, then it is not a just war. These principles are not opinions, but the teaching of the Church. Whether they are met or not is a matter that may have legitimate differences of opinion, but the principles themselves are Catholic moral doctrine.

[Era Might]

[quote name='curtins' post='1370721' date='Aug 25 2007, 09:07 PM']But to answer the question- yes I believe the citizens should support the troops even if the Pope's opinion is different.[/quote]
My question is not related to what the Pope believes, but to what individual citizens believe. While a Catholic may believe that this is a just war, a Catholic may also believe that it is an unjust war.

Suppose you believed this (or any war) to be an unjust war. What do you believe is the appropriate response as a Catholic? That's the general question I'm trying to ask.

[curtins]

I could be completely wrong, but is it possible that there were at least some German and Japanese soldiers who believed they were honorably serving their country and doing their duty with valor and bravery, without knowing about and consenting to the attrocities?

[curtins]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1370732' date='Aug 25 2007, 10:24 PM']If a war does not meet the criteria of the just war principles set out by the Church, then it is not a just war. These principles are not opinions, but the teaching of the Church. Whether they are met or not is a matter that may have legitimate differences of opinion, but the principles themselves are Catholic moral doctrine.[/quote]

Yup, you're right- the criteria are legit, the difference comes in determining whether or not the criteria are met. I believe they have been met, others do not.


[quote name='Era Might' post='1370733' date='Aug 25 2007, 10:28 PM']My question is not related to what the Pope believes, but to what individual citizens believe. While a Catholic may believe that this is a just war, a Catholic may also believe that it is an unjust war.

Suppose you believed this (or any war) to be an unjust war. What do you believe is the appropriate response as a Catholic? That's the general question I'm trying to ask.[/quote]

Well I would believe a war is unjust if for instance we attacked a country that was utterly defenseless and had nothing whatso ever to do with anything that affected our foriegn policy (like lets say we invaded Jamaica) then I'd say that I do not support that war AND I'd put my money where my mouth is (unlike the left who 'support the troops' but trash the war effort) and say that I do not support the troops in that PARTICULAR mission/war. Same thing goes if we just started killing off civilians and committing atrocities (NOT isolated incidents- ie the orders are coming from high up to do this on a wide spread basis)

[Era Might]

I think you bring up a good point in your example because while an unjust war is an unjust war, there may be some wars that are more blatantly unjust than others.

But, in a war like this, where the United States has good will, but (assuming for the sake of argument) still does not meet the criterion of just war, how do you believe Catholics who determine that the war is unjust should respond? Should they not support the troops in the same way as the example you gave?

I think there is a real dilemma in this kind of situation. I'm not talking about rabid secularists who hate America and use the war as a pretext to advance their cause, but honest citizens who do not believe that it was just to invade Iraq, and maybe have a family member there. How do they obey their conscience and support the troops at the same time?

Getting back to the original post, I think the issue here is that there is not one Catholic answer to whether this war is just or not. A Catholic soldier may believe it is a just war, and he is free to believe that and serve in the war (as long as his decision is reasonably informed by the teaching of the Church). Thus, he believes he is fighting a just cause, and so of course he is not committing a mortal sin, because the Church has not forbidden anyone from believing the war is just.

However, his belief that the war is just does not necessarily mean that he is right. There is another legitimate view that the war is unjust. And so there is a tension here, because a Catholic may believe it is an unjust war, but also should recognize that a soldier has the freedom as far as the Church is concerned to come to a different conclusion.

So how can those two be balanced, respecting on the one hand the freedom of Catholic soldiers to fight if they believe the war is just, and on the other hand being a citizen of a nation that is engaged in an unjust war? People have to be able to make their views known as responsible citizens, but then they may be accused of being unpatriotic and not supporting the troops, which begs the question of what it means to support the troops.

[curtins]

Looking at only the Iraq war, if one believes that we were not justified going into Iraq, I would suggest they re-examine the facts and circumstances surrounding the invasion, the intel we had, the threat, etc etc. If they come to the same conclusion, I would ask them, would we be justified in leaving and letting thousands upon thousands die in a blood bath? Its like, ok whether you like it or not- we're in- whats done is done. What matters now is going foward. I would say then that that person could support the troops in their efforts to bring peace and stability back to the country and to hunt down terrorists who are killing innocent civilians.

[Era Might]

But that's a separate issue. Forget whether you believe the war is just or not. In general, how should Catholics respond who believe the war (any war) is unjust, assuming it is a war similar to the Iraq war, where America went with good will but did not meet the criterion of just war. These people cannot compromise their belief that the war is unjust, so how do they "support the troops" and obey their conscience?

[Paladin D]

[b]Off-topic note:[/b] This isn't addressed to anyone in particular, just a general message. We have a number of Phatmassers (and spouses/family of PMers) that are currently serving in the U.S. military. [b]Rick77[/b] enlisted in the Marine Corps and left for Boot Camp on August 13th, [b]IcePrincess'[/b] husband is in the US Army signal corps, and I'm currently going through the MEPS process to enlist in the US Army (active). I can't think of anyone else at the moment, but just keep this in mind when discussing the issue at hand.

[Socrates]

[quote name='XIX' post='1370716' date='Aug 25 2007, 08:03 PM']I believe it is appropriate to point out here that there is such a thing as regurgitated conservative tripe.[/quote]
I disagree, but that has nothing to do with the topic of this thread.

Please note that I do not despise this liberal clown because he opposes the war in Iraq, but because of his statements against churches praying for parishioners serving in Iraq, etc.:
[quote]I wonder if your church is like mine. [b]Do they pray for our troops? Do they cheer when our soldiers return from the battlefront?[/b]
Do they ever pray tearfully for the country and lives torn apart by our invasion?

[b]Do they have the names and photos of your parishioners serving in the war on your walls and bulletins[/b], or are there names and photos of their innocent victims?[/quote]
The author of the letter then goes on to indicate that he regards such things as immoral because of the alleged immorality of the war.

I counter that it would be hateful and un-Christian to [b]not[/b] pray for our troops overseas.
A prayer list of parishioners serving in the military is in our parish bulletin, and, as I see it, only a madman or a Satanist could be opposed to such a thing.

Praying for our troops, and giving them similar support should have nothing to do with whether one agrees with the war or not. Even most anti-war liberals would agree with me on this - "I support our troops, but not the war."

Many enlisted in the military to serve their country before the war, and do not have the choice to simply desert. Others joined with the sincere objective to help people and improve the situation in Iraq. Many will testify that they have done good there and helped people. And those in the military are morally supposed to give their superiors the benefit of the doubt regarding the morality of a particular war - to hold every soldier and Marine in Iraq guilty of mortal sin simply for serving there is absurd.
If things had gone differently, I would have likely been fighting in Iraq. I would have certainly wanted all the prayers and support from back home I could get. I would not want geniuses like this bleeding-heart joker whining about my name being on a prayer list!

These young men are friends, brothers, sons, husbands, and fathers of people in our parish. What does this jackass want - for us to refuse to pray for them, or pray that some "insurgent" blow his head off, or that he end up tortured in some prison??

This is incredibly callous and insulting to those serving in Iraq undergoing hardships that civilians can barely imagine, as well as to their families.

Whether you agree with us being at war or not, should we not pray for the spiritual and material safety and well-being of our brothers fighting overseas?
To do otherwise can hardly be considered Christian.

This fool has let his fanatic politics blind him to basic Christian decency.

And like it or not, the situation now is that good can only come out of the success of our troops - both for us, and for the Iraq people. No good will come out of American failure or the triumph of our enemies. That would make the situation even worse.

Edited August 26, 2007 by Socrates

[Era Might]

[quote name='Paladin D' post='1370820' date='Aug 25 2007, 11:08 PM'][b]Off-topic note:[/b] This isn't addressed to anyone in particular, just a general message. We have a number of Phatmassers (and spouses/family of PMers) that are currently serving in the U.S. military. [b]Rick77[/b] enlisted in the Marine Corps and left for Boot Camp on August 13th, [b]IcePrincess'[/b] husband is in the US Army signal corps, and I'm currently going through the MEPS process to enlist in the US Army (active). I can't think of anyone else at the moment, but just keep this in mind when discussing the issue at hand.[/quote]
Yes, there are probably a lot of Phatmassers who have family in the military (myself included). It's kind of sobering to hear about people younger than myself dying in Iraq. It really makes you step back and put life into perspective. If they're sacrificing their lives, what am I doing with my life?

[Paladin D]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1370958' date='Aug 26 2007, 12:32 PM']Yes, there are probably a lot of Phatmassers who have family in the military (myself included). It's kind of sobering to hear about people younger than myself dying in Iraq. It really makes you step back and put life into perspective. If they're sacrificing their lives, what am I doing with my life? [/quote]

It's sad to see the situation we're in, hopefully we're able to return our troops home safely in due time.