Us Troops In Mortal Sin? Supporting Troops Also Sinful?

[Paladin D]

[b]EDIT:[/b] Would a [b]moderator[/b] move this topic to the Debate Table? It originally was not going to be a topic of debate, but realized it was, soon after I changed the original structure and posted the thread.


I found these two letters particularly interesting. It shows two contrasting views in regards to the overall conduct of the US military, and whether or not US troops are in 'mortal sin'. The first letter was from Donald Williams, which was published in the [b]Catholic Virginian[/b] (Diocese of Richmond newspaper) in the June 18th, 2007 issue. It reads: [url="http://www.catholicvirginian.org/archive/2007/2007vol82iss17/pages/letters.html"]Catholic Virginian archives[/url]

[quote][b]War in Iraq not a ‘just war’[/b]
I wonder if your church is like mine. Do they pray for our troops? Do they cheer when our soldiers return from the battlefront?

Do they ever pray tearfully for the country and lives torn apart by our invasion?

Do they have the names and photos of your parishioners serving in the war on your walls and bulletins, or are there names and photos of their innocent victims?

We were warned before that Iraq was immoral. Pope John Paul II called the war an unjust war of aggression. He said that the church opposed a preemptive or preventive war. The conditions of the just war theory had not been met. There was no imminent threat.

The war was not a last resort as long as inspectors were still in Iraq. It could not reasonably be assured that the damage that would be inflicted and the costs incurred by the war would be proportionate to the supposed good expected by invading Iraq. Then Cardinal Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict) said, “The United Nations is the institution that should make the final decision.”

Fearing defeat, the U.S. didn’t wait for the United Nation’s vote that would have rejected the use of force in Iraq. So, the U.S. was not the competent authority in this case.

In the church’s just war theory, ALL the conditions must be met with reasonable (or strict) certainty or the war is unjust. Did moral-thinking Christians really think we had met the church’s conditions for a just war? Or did they follow the Commander-in-Chief while ignoring the Prince of Peace?

History has now shown the two Popes to be right. There were no ties between Iraq and 9/11 as the administration kept insinuating. We were also guilty of careless disregard for the lives of Iraq’s civilians. We didn’t prepare to protect the civilians immediately following the overthrow, nor in the four years since “mission accomplished.”

Besides the indiscriminate bombing and the targeting of merely suspicious groups (such as wedding parties), the use of depleted uranium in American shell casings has caused needless deaths by cancer in sections of the country.

The justification based on “freeing the people from Saddam Hussein” was an afterthought, and not sufficient for an invasion either. He was bad but not the worst dictator according to most nongovernmental human rights groups.

So I ask, why are so many priests silent on this unjust war? Why do so many Catholics still support the war and the troops if it is an unjust war?

If it was known to be unjust before they went, why aren’t the soldiers guilty of a mortal sin? When and where will we repent?[/quote]


Now this is a response to that letter from Rev. Howard W. Johnson, Chaplain, US Army, retired. It was published in the July 16th, issue: [url="http://www.catholicvirginian.org/archive/2007/2007vol82iss19/pages/letters.html"]Catholic Virginian archives[/url]

[quote][b]Chaplain responds to previous letter[/b]
In response to Donald Williams’ letter (June 18th, 2007), ‘War in Iraq not a Just War’, I wish to point out he ignores several facts in his letter. Mr. Williams glosses over the fact Saddam murdered an estimated 500,000 of his own people.

Mr. Williams does not mention that most of the civilians killed in the war have been killed by terrorists and insurgents of Iraq, not the U.S. military. These terrorists will continue to kill innocent civilians in Iraq with or without the coalition forces present just as they did before the war. One wonders how many Americans they would kill if it weren’t for our military there trying to stop them?

Unlike the cowardly priest in the Good Samaritan parable (Luke 10: 25–37) who walked by the injured man and did nothing to help him, those serving in our military are the Good Samaritans trying to help the people of Iraq secure a free nation as well as stop the terrorists’ threat to America.

All freedom loving people should be grateful to the heroic military personnel who sacrifice so much for the safety of all Americans.[/quote]


I agree overall with the 2nd letter. Again, the main discussion is not specifically about the Iraq War, it's about the US troops serving in that war.

Edited August 25, 2007 by Paladin D

[curtins]

I think the guy who wrote the first letter should be ashamed to suggest that our troops are in mortal sin for HONORABLY SERVING THEIR COUNTRY!

"Do not judge lest ye be judged"

who made this guy pope?


The Just war theory is not even infalliable church doctrine, its more church opinion on foriegn policy matters. I personally respectfully disagree with John Paul and Benedict and believe this is a more than justifed war.


He throws all the typical liberal defeat-ist rhetoric into his letter:

-mission accomplished
-we're bombing indiscriminately- murdering women and children (jack murtha anyone?)
-no wmds

I would think this came outta CNN or the new york times, not a catholic news paper

[Era Might]

Before getting into the question of the soldiers themselves, I think a relevant question is whether citizens of a nation should always support their military troops. Should German and Japanese Catholics have supported their nation's troops in WWII?

[Socrates]

[quote name='Paladin D' post='1370648' date='Aug 25 2007, 06:39 PM'][b]EDIT:[/b] Would a [b]moderator[/b] move this topic to the Debate Table? It originally was not going to be a topic of debate, but realized it was, soon after I changed the original structure and posted the thread.
I found these two letters particularly interesting. It shows two contrasting views in regards to the overall conduct of the US military, and whether or not US troops are in 'mortal sin'. The first letter was from Donald Williams, which was published in the [b]Catholic Virginian[/b] (Diocese of Richmond newspaper) in the June 18th, 2007 issue. It reads: [url="http://www.catholicvirginian.org/archive/2007/2007vol82iss17/pages/letters.html"]Catholic Virginian archives[/url]
Now this is a response to that letter from Rev. Howard W. Johnson, Chaplain, US Army, retired. It was published in the July 16th, issue: [url="http://www.catholicvirginian.org/archive/2007/2007vol82iss19/pages/letters.html"]Catholic Virginian archives[/url]
I agree overall with the 2nd letter. Again, the main discussion is not specifically about the Iraq War, it's about the US troops serving in that war.[/quote]
The fool who wrote that first letter is a complete moron.
Besides making a number of rather dubious pronouncements (such as that only the U.N., rather than the U.S., could be a "competent authority") and regurgitated liberal anti-American tripe, he completely crosses a line when he insinuates that it is wrong for parishes to pray for our troops, or welcome returning soldiers/marines!

While one can debate whether or not the intitial invasion was morally justified, to say that we must not support our troops in any way, or even pray for them, is not only wrong, but goes against basic Christian duty!

The violence in Iraq is being currently perpetuated by Islamic "militants," not by our military, which is there to contain the violence. If our troops do not succeed, the area will not become peaceful, but will fall into even greater chaos and oppression.

Whatever you think about the war, to complain about such things as prayer lists for our troops, and welcoming soldiers home, is absolutely despicable, traitorous, and un-Christian. I've known men who've served in the war, and those who refuse to support, or even pray for, these men, who've made great sacrifices to serve their country, make me sick.

Garbage like this is one of the reasons I utterly despise liberalism.

[Paladin D]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1370669' date='Aug 25 2007, 09:18 PM']Whatever you think about the war, to complain about such things as prayer lists for our troops, and welcoming soldiers home, is absolutely despicable, traitorous, and un-Christian.[/quote]

Very well said. I couldn't believe this supposed "Catholic" would nave such a view on our troops as a whole. The counter-response from the former Army Chaplain was very fitting.

Edited August 26, 2007 by Paladin D

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1370665' date='Aug 25 2007, 08:14 PM']Should German and Japanese Catholics have supported their nation's troops in WWII?[/quote]

Bad comparison, since they were living under a dictatorship and had little or no opportunity to effect change without the Gestapo sending them off to concentration camps, while at least we are able to vote for a change in government - thanks to those that have put the uniform on.

[Era Might]

The comparison between the two wars or the respective nations is not relevant at the moment. You may not believe that they are comparable, but someone else may. That's a separate issue entirely.

The question is whether a citizen should always support his nation's troops when they go to war?

[Norseman82]

One other thing to point out. I posted previously about someone I graduated high school with who was ordained and became an army chaplain. His name is Fr. John Barkemeyer, and he is now serving in Iraq. In the article, I recall that he expressed doubts about the necessity of the Iraq invasion, but to him his ministry is not about politics, but rather about serving the troops there.

[curtins]

Oh so now we're Nazi Germany, and our troops SS storm troopers?

So long as they are honorably defeding the country, yes. Also, putting aside the horrible and completely inane comparison between Germany/Japan and the US, even German and Jap Catholics could PRAY for their troops, even if they didn't support them.

Well Said socrates: Like the UN runs this country. They can't even keep themselves streight on oil for food. Kick em outta NYC! (Or better yet, build the WTC taller than ever and stick the UN right on the TOP floor!)

[Era Might]

The question has nothing to do with Germany and Japan, they were just examples. Take them out.

Does a citizen always have a duty to support his nation's troops when they go to war?

You say yes as long as they are serving honorably. But what does that mean? Do you mean it doesn't matter what nation and government they are defending, as long as they defend it honorably, they should be supported?

[curtins]

defending their country honorably means eliminating the enemy, working towards peace, accomplishing the mission with bravery and self sacrifice, trying their best to minimize civilian casualties (although they will occur- as it is war) i.e. not committing war crimes as the nazis did.

[Era Might]

So if a German soldier in WWII did not commit war crimes and carried out his military duties with honor, do you believe that a German Catholic should have supported him and his mission to fight against the United States?

[curtins]

The broader mission of the Nazis WAS to commit war crimes (haulocaust). So yeah maybe the cook or the truck driver in some obscure part of Europe just cookin or driving aint killin no Jews, but somehow, by some chain of connection, he is helping supply or feed or support those who are. However, that cook might now know about the holocaust so he can't be held responsible- for all he knows hes just doing his job, serving his country

One must look at the larger mission- the bigger picture.

[Era Might]

So you believe that if the mission of the nation is unjust, that the citizens should not support the troops?

[curtins]

Well that depends on whether the troops know what they're doing is wrong, or at least if all the troops know it. And my deffinition of Just war is not in line with the church's. I believe all of their just war theory criteria have been met- others do not belive they have been met. Nice try boxing me in though.