Do Suicides Go To Hell?

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='GodChild' post='1369826' date='Aug 24 2007, 08:02 AM']In regards to Judas, my teacher in Catholicism taught me that he was the first of many souls created for wrath (ie: deadwood for the fire) - that despite doing anything, he was pre-damned to go to hell - for this reason Jesus said it would be better he had not been born - also, people made in the image of Judas are created continuously - these words apply to them also - thats what I was taught ... so based on what I was taught, if the person who suicides is one of God's holy ones, they will be saved regardless - if they were one of the objects of wrath, they are damned - but when I bought my own feelings of suicide I was told that God gives me those feelings cause His wrath is upon me ... so, theres my 2c[/quote]


this sounds a lot like predestination. this sounds more methodist than it does catholic.

[homeschoolmom]

That doesn't sound right to me, either. God does not create people in order to beaver dam them to hell.

[carrdero]

When a spiritual entity chooses a physical existence it must also choose it’s method of death (exit). So by committing to the physical experience, everyone commits suicide.

[dairygirl4u2c]

so many people have feelings that it doesn't seem merciful to condemn a suicide to hell. how little we give God credit for.
if we can imagine it or find a way around it, perhaps God can too. i realize God's ways are not ours, but let's not forget we are made in God's image.
justice is evlusive enough for our little minds that He is not bound only to cast the suicides to hell. justice and mercy and other things can be satisfied without the suicides necessarily goig to hell.
there are many possibilities. i could whip out a few more if i wanted to just off the top of my head.

[cmotherofpirl]

If you are killing yourself for spite [ he doesn't love me and I'll show him] you are probably condemning yourself. But if you are out of your mind with grief -anxiety -despair -depression -remorse etc you canot be consider culpable for your actions. We are not capable of making these judgements to any great degree of accuracy and we have no clue what happens at the moment of death, for God is outside of time, so we should pray for them ALL.

[beatty07]

[quote name='GodChild' post='1369826' date='Aug 24 2007, 08:02 AM']In regards to Judas, my teacher in Catholicism taught me that he was the first of many souls created for wrath (ie: deadwood for the fire) - that despite doing anything, he was pre-damned to go to hell - for this reason Jesus said it would be better he had not been born - also, people made in the image of Judas are created continuously - these words apply to them also - thats what I was taught ... so based on what I was taught, if the person who suicides is one of God's holy ones, they will be saved regardless - if they were one of the objects of wrath, they are damned - but when I bought my own feelings of suicide I was told that God gives me those feelings cause His wrath is upon me ... so, theres my 2c[/quote]

Then I beg you not to trust anything that "teacher" ever told you without checking against the Catechism or some reliable source. This is not the Catholic faith, but Calvinism. God predestines no one for Hell. God wishes that all be saved... 1 Tim 2:4

If that is really what this person told you about your own suicidal feelings, then I also beg you to avoid them whenever possible. That's just a sick, sadistic, and very unChristian way for them to respond.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='infinitelord1' post='1369819' date='Aug 24 2007, 08:27 AM']when you all say repent....do you mean repent after death for committing suicide? I dont think repenting would work if you did it before the suicide. The same would apply to any other sin...if you are to commit murder and you repent before the murder then you still committed a mortal sin since you did it knowingly. Obviously if you commit suicide and that was your intention then there would never be an instance where you could repent and be forgiven before you die. So I would think that you would have to repent after you die while being judged by God.[/quote]

Not to be too gruesome, but most suicides aren't instantenous. With even a couple seconds of consciousness, one might repent and wish they could take it back. Of course, I wouldn't count on that... committing suicide (or any sin) with the intention of "repenting" later is a straight up abuse of God's mercy.

[quote name='infinitelord1' post='1369819' date='Aug 24 2007, 08:27 AM']As far as morallity goes...I think it is a given that suicide is a sin...however, there are good people in this world who get very depressed and feel helpless about their situation...I find it hard to believe that God would send them to Hell given their situation.[/quote]

Exactly. Anyone who is driven to the point of suicide has a lot of issues going on, and likely some psychological illness. I'm honestly not sure that anyone who commits suicide is actually guilty of that sin, but that's only up to God's judgement.

[quote name='infinitelord1' post='1369819' date='Aug 24 2007, 08:27 AM']I feel like I am a black man in the 18th century...[/quote]

For that matter, being black today isn't necessarily easy. Not that I can speak from experience, but I've heard and seen enough to know we aren't as far removed from the 18th century as we sometimes think we are.

[quote name='infinitelord1' post='1369819' date='Aug 24 2007, 08:27 AM']we are looking at a variety of issues here...the first "I experience unwanted same sex attractions" shows a propensity that I will never be free of them until I die...[/quote]

Everyone has propensity to certain sins, even saints. It's the side of their lives that we don't focus on so much, but everybody has weaknesses that create a personal cross or thorn in the flesh. It may just be our personal reminder that we are living in a fallen world, so with every moment of struggle, we look forward to the eternal freedom we'll gain when we die in Christ. Look at it this way: you experience unwanted same sex attractions, while others experience unwanted opposite sex attractions Not that some people want to be gay or lesbian, but that all Christians should desire to be free of unwanted/unchaste sexual desire in order to be fully devoted to God.

[quote name='infinitelord1' post='1369819' date='Aug 24 2007, 08:27 AM']the second issue would be the fact that most people dont like gays (yet another thing i have no control over)...[/quote]

This one is their problem, but I pray you'll find a community of faithful Catholics who will encourage you. Or perhaps you can be the one who breaks down whatever prejudice or barrier. Most likely, their just afraid of what they don't know, so the more they know you, the sooner that fear will vanish.

Have you looked into Courage? They're a group of Catholic gays and lesbians who encourage faithfullness to the Church and learning how to live in joyful chastity (which, really, is everyone's calling).

[quote name='infinitelord1' post='1369819' date='Aug 24 2007, 08:27 AM']the third issue that i have is how i hate the way i feel. A lot of this stuff I have no control over. Imagine going through this...where the only thing you can really do is accept the way you feel...there are really no options...imagine how helpless you would feel if you were in a constant state like this. It smells of elderberries. I cant see how God would send somebody like this to hell for committing suicide.

I guess there are some options when it comes to the issue of homosexuality...

a. act upon your feelings and go to hell

b. commit suicide and go to hell

c. you chose not to fall in love with anybody for the rest of your life and die lonely and never have a family of your own. not to mention all of the adversity you have to go through.

does anybody have any extra options?[/quote]

I have a friend who shares a lot of the same feelings you do. He's torn between entering religious life or having a life partner. He says he loves the Church and would never leave, yet obviously disagrees with the teaching on sexuality. I think the deeper issue is one of trust. He doesn't trust that the Church teaching is true, so he is going out in search of what he believes is right. In a strange sort of way, I envy him because if he does come to believe and trust the Church, he's sacrificing more than most Catholics do. That's an awesome opportunity for grace, not to mention the witness to the source of all Love.

All of us are sinners, so I think all of us should find that we struggle with the Church and following Christ in a real and tangible way. As soon as we become comfortable with being Catholic, we start to backslide and the devil quietly sneaks into our lives. Here's a fourth option I hope you'll consider:

d. You choose to love and trust God, and through Him, discover how you are called to love your neighbors, finding your fulfillment in the only place anyone should find it regardless of their state in life, dying in communion with the Trinity and those who were drawn to you because you reflected Christ in your life, knowing that Jesus kept his promise that those who give up mother, brother, sisters for his sake will receive a hundredfold in the kingdom of God.

If nothing else, at least know that we are praying for you.

Edited August 24, 2007 by LouisvilleFan

[Starets]

[quote name='GodChild' post='1369826' date='Aug 24 2007, 08:02 AM']In regards to Judas, my teacher in Catholicism taught me that he was the first of many souls created for wrath (ie: deadwood for the fire) - that despite doing anything, he was pre-damned to go to hell - for this reason Jesus said it would be better he had not been born - also, people made in the image of Judas are created continuously - these words apply to them also - thats what I was taught ... so based on what I was taught, if the person who suicides is one of God's holy ones, they will be saved regardless - if they were one of the objects of wrath, they are damned - but when I bought my own feelings of suicide I was told that God gives me those feelings cause His wrath is upon me ... so, theres my 2c[/quote]
That's double predestination and was rejecdted by the Church generations ago. This "teacher in catholicism" needs to be fired forthwith.

[dairygirl4u2c]

kind of like that "brand new" song but not. "you can sin or spend the night all alone"

i could maybe call myself catholic, but i don't trust the church's teachings are true to be truly catholic. not that they are false, i just don't know. and to call myself past that is to call the church what it's not. (tho perhaps should be.. i'd be in a stand off with the CC)

Edited August 24, 2007 by dairygirl4u2c

[carrdero]

[quote]infinitelord1 writes: I guess there are some options when it comes to the issue of homosexuality...

a. act upon your feelings and go to hell

b. commit suicide and go to hell

c. you chose not to fall in love with anybody for the rest of your life and die lonely and never have a family of your own. not to mention all of the adversity you have to go through.

does anybody have any extra options?[/quote]
d. Be Yourself

[Aloysius]

"acting upon your feelings" seems so simplistic. is not your hatred of your same-sex attraction also a feeling? you call them "unwanted", that's a feeling too, you don't want them. you're acting upon that feeling, right? why would you choose one of your feelings over another of your feelings when they come into conflict? you need to understand your feelings, both sides; the sides of your feelings that say you don't want same sex attraction, and the sides of your feelings that are indeed attracted to the same sex.

you need to spend a lot of time disinterested from the thought of any romantic relationship with anyone. people you find attractive, ask yourself what attracts you to them. sometimes you'll find that you actually personally desire to be more like them in some way... when you're really physically attracted to them, you might find that you would like to look like them more. when it's more of an emotional attraction, sometimes you might find that you'd really like to exhibit this or that quality that they exhibit. these are things to occupy yourself with thinking about; do not dwell on feelings for them and the fact that you cannot act upon them; dissect the feelings and understand them. these are not the only things that such feelings might be understood as or have a motivation towards, but there is usually a way of understanding your attraction to someone.

keep firm in a conviction that you would wish some day to live in line with nature... foster a natural desire for children, for instance. do not focus on the sex acts themselves, either the homosexual ones or the heterosexual ones, but on the final result. you might find in yourself a stronger more transcendent desire for being part of a family with a wife and children. understand that desire, dwell in those feelings and longings. if and when you have found that desire, though, do not assume you have been "cured" and go on your merry way to close your eyes, think of england, and make babies.... you have to let that higher desire sink down in to your baser emotions.

don't let yourself worry about what other guys think of you. if you find yourself attracted to a guy who you think is straight, go ahead and try to be his friend. if he rags on you for stuff, rag on him... guys rag on each other. don't assume he means anything substantial by it if he makes fun of you for something, most guys when they "make fun" of someone do not really mean anything deep by it; it's usually just a way of sparring.

converting imaginary desires is really useful to this... it might sound cheesy, but it helped me: if you find yourself imagining kissing him, change that imagined thing, imagine instead giving him a high five or something... it really helps to focus it into an actual natural desire (a desire for friendship) rather than simply trying to confront a desire you do not want to have head on... which might just lead directly to suppression and further despair.

if you find yourself attracted to a guy who you think could very likely become an occasion of sin because he might act on something with you, you know, then probably it wouldn't be that great of an idea to spend a lot of one-on-one time with them as a friend... be discerning of who you'd like to be friends with.

yours is a path towards the restoration of nature, it can be long and will likely be a struggle at times, but making it an honest struggle and really understanding yourself will go a long ways to keeping yourself away from despair and always moving forward in hope. one of the biggest mistakes people make is to just continually pray for God to take away their homosexual feelings, and then despairing when there is no miraculous removal of them. that's not the way things work.

[iggyjoan]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' post='1368800' date='Aug 23 2007, 08:15 AM']We are not in a possition to judge anyone's soul. God is.[/quote]


I agree. Next Topic!

[thessalonian]

[quote name='GodChild' post='1369826' date='Aug 24 2007, 08:02 AM']In regards to Judas, my teacher in Catholicism taught me that he was the first of many souls created for wrath (ie: deadwood for the fire) - that despite doing anything, he was pre-damned to go to hell - for this reason Jesus said it would be better he had not been born - also, people made in the image of Judas are created continuously - these words apply to them also - thats what I was taught ... so based on what I was taught, if the person who suicides is one of God's holy ones, they will be saved regardless - if they were one of the objects of wrath, they are damned - but when I bought my own feelings of suicide I was told that God gives me those feelings cause His wrath is upon me ... so, theres my 2c[/quote]

Sounds like double predestination to me.
It is a heresy that any are predestined to hell. Judas recieved sufficent grace to go to heaven but his free will was allowed and he rejected a certain amount of that grace and so did what he did. Did he have the grace to repent in those dying breaths or remain in his dispair? I don't know. But God creates noone for hell. He desires that "all men be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth". Judas as well as Muhamed as well as Stalin and Hitler. " The sun shines on the good and the bad". All recieve his grace. Some choose damnation on their own. Your catechism teacher was wrong. See my quotes from Pope JP II above. I'll go with him.

[prose]

In regards to the "Catholic" teacher, I am curious, where is this person teaching? Is it in school? Is it in a university? Either way, they need to be reported. If it is a non-Catholic who is "teaching" Catholicism, then you need to address this issue with him/her and perhaps some higher-ups. He certainly does not know nor understand Catholicism.

As for the homosexual thing:

d. choose to love all of God's creation and God Himself. Focus on personal and spiritual growth. Wait and see what God's plans are for you. They may not be as bad as you think. God is like that. We think we know the outcome, but He always has better plans than what we can imagine.

Check out this site for support: [url="http://couragerc.net/"]http://couragerc.net/[/url]

[MichaelFilo]

It is silly to think that being under extreme cases alleviates one of the just penalty for suicide, that is, eternal damnation. Else extreme lust can justify premarital sex, extreme hate can justify murder, etc.

We do know that anyone who commits a mortal sin and does not ask for repentance is going to hell, and we know that the natural law, not man-made or God-given in the sense of the Mosaic law, tells us that suicide is morally wrong, because we are by nature inclined to attempt to survive. So, I am not sure ignorance can ever be a factor. Only true repentance, such as before the 67 pills of asprin lay you to eternal rest can we be sure will save anyone, the split seconds before you die from hanging yourself (in the case of Judas.)