Dave Posted February 8, 2004 Share Posted February 8, 2004 If a priest says "I forgive you your sins in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" instead of "I ABSOLVE you your sins . . . " is that a valid formula for absolution? I know it's illicit, but is it also invalid? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted February 8, 2004 Share Posted February 8, 2004 If a priest says "I forgive you your sins in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" instead of "I ABSOLVE you your sins . . . " is that a valid formula for absolution? I know it's illicit, but is it also invalid? I wish I knew, but my instincts tell it would be valid since the words are basically synonymous. I knew this priest from South Africa who instead of saying "let us proclaim the mystery of faith" after the Consecration would say "let us proclaim this great mystery that we believe in". It always struck me as sounding funny. Anyway, I don't really know for sure but I would bet big money that it's valid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted February 8, 2004 Author Share Posted February 8, 2004 I wish I knew, but my instincts tell it would be valid since the words are basically synonymous. I knew this priest from South Africa who instead of saying "let us proclaim the mystery of faith" after the Consecration would say "let us proclaim this great mystery that we believe in". It always struck me as sounding funny. Anyway, I don't really know for sure but I would bet big money that it's valid. Actually, what that priest said wouldn't make a difference, as it's not one of the words a priest must say to have a valid consecration. Of course, it was surely illicit of him to change the words of the Mass. Besides, the consecration has already taken place right before the memorial acclamation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted February 8, 2004 Share Posted February 8, 2004 Priests absolve. God forgives. ABSOLUTION. In the sacrament of penance, the act by which a qualified priest, having the necessary jurisdiction, remits the guilt and penalty due to sin. The new formula of absolution, since the Second Vatican Council, is: “God, the Father of mercies, through the death and resurrection of His Son, has reconciled the world to Himself and sent the Holy Spirit among us for the forgiveness of sins; through the ministry of the Church may God give you pardon and peace, and I absolve you from your sins in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.” To which the penitent answers, “Amen.” In this formula the essential words are: “I absolve you.” For centuries, the Church used the deprecatory form of absolution, e.g., “May God absolve you from your sins.” This was really declarative in meaning, as is clear from the fact that in the whole of tradition the priest who absolved was looked upon as a judge who actually absolved, even though he used the subjunctive mood to express his affirmative judgment. (Etym. Latin absolvere, to free from; to absolve, acquit.) FORGIVENESS. Pardon or remission of an offense. The Catholic Church believes that sins forgiven are actually removed from the soul (John 20) and not merely covered over by the merits of Christ. Only God can forgive sins, since he alone can restore sanctifying grace to a person who has sinned gravely and thereby lost the state of grace. God forgives sins to the truly repentant either immediately through an act of perfect contrition or mediately through a sacrament. The sacraments primarily directed to the forgiveness of sins are baptism and penance, and secondarily, under certain conditions, also the sacrament of anointing. http://www.therealpresence.org/dictionary/dictaguide.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted February 8, 2004 Share Posted February 8, 2004 Actually, what that priest said wouldn't make a difference, as it's not one of the words a priest must say to have a valid consecration. Of course, it was surely illicit of him to change the words of the Mass. Besides, the consecration has already taken place right before the memorial acclamation. Oh, hehe, yeah.. I actually threw in that part about the South African priest just because I thought of it and thought it was amusing. I wasn't trying to suggest that this made the Mass invalid. I see now how muddled my post was. Sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted February 8, 2004 Share Posted February 8, 2004 Priests absolve. God forgives. Ah yes! Excellent distinction CMom. I'll remember that. "May God give you pardon and peace, and I absolve you from your sins in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" "Amen" I love those words! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted February 8, 2004 Share Posted February 8, 2004 Please note the source and add it to your favorites Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted February 8, 2004 Author Share Posted February 8, 2004 (edited) Priests absolve. God forgives. ABSOLUTION. In the sacrament of penance, the act by which a qualified priest, having the necessary jurisdiction, remits the guilt and penalty due to sin. The new formula of absolution, since the Second Vatican Council, is: “God, the Father of mercies, through the death and resurrection of His Son, has reconciled the world to Himself and sent the Holy Spirit among us for the forgiveness of sins; through the ministry of the Church may God give you pardon and peace, and I absolve you from your sins in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.” To which the penitent answers, “Amen.” In this formula the essential words are: “I absolve you.” For centuries, the Church used the deprecatory form of absolution, e.g., “May God absolve you from your sins.” This was really declarative in meaning, as is clear from the fact that in the whole of tradition the priest who absolved was looked upon as a judge who actually absolved, even though he used the subjunctive mood to express his affirmative judgment. (Etym. Latin absolvere, to free from; to absolve, acquit.) FORGIVENESS. Pardon or remission of an offense. The Catholic Church believes that sins forgiven are actually removed from the soul (John 20) and not merely covered over by the merits of Christ. Only God can forgive sins, since he alone can restore sanctifying grace to a person who has sinned gravely and thereby lost the state of grace. God forgives sins to the truly repentant either immediately through an act of perfect contrition or mediately through a sacrament. The sacraments primarily directed to the forgiveness of sins are baptism and penance, and secondarily, under certain conditions, also the sacrament of anointing. http://www.therealpresence.org/dictionary/dictaguide.htm So in other words, Cmom, is what the priest said invalid? I asked the question because I know a priest who says exactly that in the confessional. I need to know if my absolutions from him were valid or not so that I'll know if I need to reconfess everything or not. Edited February 8, 2004 by Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted February 8, 2004 Share Posted February 8, 2004 I would assume they were forgiven Dave. Some times we catholics get a little lax in our choice of vacabulary. Ask the priest about his word choice, he probably doesn't consider the difference is important, even if we do. I can't imagine a priest using a formula and intending you not to have your sins removed. That would make no sense. Remember God does the removing, the priest merely formalizes it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted February 8, 2004 Author Share Posted February 8, 2004 I would assume they were forgiven Dave. Some times we catholics get a little lax in our choice of vacabulary. Ask the priest about his word choice, he probably doesn't consider the difference is important, even if we do. I can't imagine a priest using a formula and intending you not to have your sins removed. That would make no sense. Remember God does the removing, the priest merely formalizes it. *breathes a sigh of relief* Thanks, Cmom! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JP2Iloveyou Posted February 8, 2004 Share Posted February 8, 2004 This actually happened to me once. The formula for Confession says that the priest must say, "I absolve you from your sins..." I'm sorry Dave, but I'm pretty sure that changing the words invalidates the Confession. The intention of the priest is important, but for a sacrament to be valid, there must be valid form and valid matter. The matter is your sins, the form is the form of absolution that the Church uses. It is similar to a priest baptizing and saying, "I initiate you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." That would be an invalid Baptism because for Baptism to be valid, there must be the intention to do what the Church intends to do when baptizing, which presumably is present, valid matter, water, and valid form, "I baptize you in the name of the Father..." Likewise, a priest could have all the right intentions in the world to consecrate the Eucharist, but if he says something like, "Take this, everyone, and consume it. This is my flesh, which will be sacrificed for you," it doesn't quite work. Valid form and valid matter. To be on the safe side, I would go to a good orthodox priest and make a general confession, meaning confessing all of the mortal sins you can remember in your entire life. This is something we should all do. If you forget some, not to worry. The intent was there to remember them all. (In this case, intent is what matters.) The priest can then counsel you against scrupulosity. The major fault here is the priest who thinks it is his right, duty, or both, to change the words of absolution that the Church has given us. You intended to make a good confession. It is not your fault your priest didn't oblige you in that intent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JP2Iloveyou Posted February 8, 2004 Share Posted February 8, 2004 Dave, this link might be helpful. If you go to www.ewtn.com roll your mouse over "Faith," go to "Catholic Q&A," click on "Search previously asked questions" or something like that, click on "Doctrine," "Any Expert," and "Forever," then type in "Valid Confession," there will be tons of different scenarios. http://www.ewtn.com/vexperts/showresult.as...nu=1&groupnum=0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted February 8, 2004 Share Posted February 8, 2004 I think you better go talk to the priest before you do anything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted February 8, 2004 Author Share Posted February 8, 2004 To be on the safe side, I would go to a good orthodox priest and make a general confession, meaning confessing all of the mortal sins you can remember in your entire life. This is something we should all do. If you forget some, not to worry. The intent was there to remember them all. (In this case, intent is what matters.) The priest can then counsel you against scrupulosity. The major fault here is the priest who thinks it is his right, duty, or both, to change the words of absolution that the Church has given us. You intended to make a good confession. It is not your fault your priest didn't oblige you in that intent. Well, I've only been to the priest in question about 3-4 times, and this was all in the past 2-3 months. So no, I don't need to confess ALL the mortal sins of my past life -- just those that I had confessed when I went to him for confession. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladin D Posted February 8, 2004 Share Posted February 8, 2004 Even with Cmom's explanation, I still don't understand. At dictionary.com, Absolve and Forgive are pretty much the same... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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