Co-redemptrix

[Laudate_Dominum]

Mary is first elevated very very high with these grand titles and words...Queen of Heaven, Advocate, comedatrix, coredemptrix, Blessed Virgin, increadibly higher than anyone else in salvic history, accept Christ Himself- King of King, Lord of Lords, Lamb of God, Emmanuel.

It's true that Mary is elevated very very high and all of that. But this is nothing new! Your protestant sensibilities would no doubt be scandalized by many devotional titles of Our Lady from the Fathers. The Fathers teach that Mary "wrought the world's salvation", "death through Eve, life through Mary", the "Mother of the Living", she is "the pillar of cloud which guides the Israelites", Mary "hath clad all believer, from the fleece of the Lamb... and she delivered them from their spiritual nakedness." She is "the mother of life", the mother of majesty and beauty", the "morning star", "the mystical new heavens", "the fruitful vine by which we are translated from death to life", "the sacred shrine of sinlessness", "the golden altar of holocaust", "the holy oil of annointing", "the Ark of purest gold", "the fair bride of the Canticles", "the stay of believers", "the Church's diadem", "the expression of orthodoxy", "God's only bridge to man", the "all-undefiled mother of holiness", the "light which sets not", "fountain of the life-giving stream", "the window of heaven", "the heavenly ladder", "Full of Grace. And full indeed, which with full shower might pour upon and into the whole creation". Mary is the "Redemptrix", "Reparatrix", the "mother of our salvation", "Queen of Martyrs", "hidden Rose", "restoration of the fallen Adam", the "Salvation of our souls", "Queen of Saints", "Mysical Rose", "impenetrable tower of David", "Mother of God", "Gate of Heaven", our "cause of life".

I could go on all day! But you get the point, high titles are nothing new for Our Lady, they are a part of historical Christianity from the earliest days. Gabriel the Archangel called her "full of grace", Elizabeth called her "blessed among women", she is the glorious "woman clothed with the sun" and the woman with the Redeemer who is the New Eve.

Some of my favorite titles of more recent times include "Spouse of the Holy Spirit" which was used by St. Francis. Kolbe strengthens this by calling her the "quasi-incarnate Holy Spirit". De Montfort, Bartolo Longo, Pope John Paul II, and others have called her the "Intercessor Omnipotent", I am quite fond of that title.

All of these titles presume that one has the true faith and understands what Mary's role actually is. They are true if understood properly, as one who deeply knows and loves Our Lady understands. They are to a devotee of Mary great expressions of love. This is what they are intended by Christ to be. They give Honor and Glory to Jesus Christ through Mary His Mother and God's creative masterpiece. The doctrine of Mary's Spiritual Motherhood is the fullest articulation of this role.

The Church does not give Mary this role or make it up. She proclaims it. People that have a problem with Mary's role should take that up with God since it's His will that Mary be so exalted and glorified.

"Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, nor has it entered into the thoughts of men, what God has in store for those who love Him." Even the heights of Mariology do not express that which God has given to Her who loves Him like no one else. Christ's work is the fulfillment of the Law. He fulfillment the fourth commandment in it's perfection. He gave honor to His Father by being obedient to His will. He also honored His Mother as we should! The Hebrew word for honor means literally 'to bestow glory", Christ has fulfilled this with His Mother in ways that have not even entered into the thoughts of men. Do not limit God's power and goodness by claiming that He cannot exalt His beloved creatures. The fact that He so exalts His creatures indicates how utterly unfathomable is His Glory!

I chuckle when protestants try to act like Mary is just a normal lady. As if in Heaven she's just going to be one of the crowd. She is Queen, Mother of God, Mother of the Church, and God's singular paradise in which He dwells, she is the New Virgin Earth, the New Garden of Eden, she is the beloved of the canticles.

The Song of Songs says of Solomon (who is a figure of Christ in Heaven) "There are sixty queens and eighty concubines, and maidens without number"

The Fathers tell us that these queens, concubines and maidens represent the degrees of souls in heaven. The queens are the favoured one's who are most rare in history, the most shining saints closest to the Heart of God. The concubines are the majority of the saints, the highly privledged souls who bore much fruit, the maidens are the bulk of us who make it but aren't great saints. The Song continues thus:

"But only one is my dove, my perfect one... flawless to her that bore her"

This is the Immaculate Mediatrix and Mother of God, Mary Most Holy, the Ever-Virgin Theotokos and Coredemptrix of Mankind.

And God saith, "Thou hast ravished my heart, my sister, my bride, thou hast ravished my heart with one glance of thine eyes, with one jewel of thy necklace. How sweet is thy love my sister, my bride! how much better is your love than wine, and the fragrance of your oils than any spice! Your lips distill nectar my bride; honey and milk are under your tongue."

Mary is our promised land, our refuge and our salvation. She is the true ark which delivers us from the flood. She is our life, our sweetness and our hope! She is a garden fountain, a well of living water, and flowing streams from Lebanon. She is the Bride, she is the new heaven and the new earth. "Behold, the dwelling of God is with men. He will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself will be with them; he will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning nor crying nor pain any more, for the former things have passed away."

The Spirit and the Bride say, "Come." And let him who hears say, "Come." And let him who is thirsty come, let him who desires take the water of life without price.

[Theologian in Training]

:clap: Applauds Laudate_Dominum for clearing up many misconceptions that revolve around this teaching that some find hard and unable to accept or even ponder.

Well Done!

P.S. Willguy, you shouldn't be so quick in retracting a statement, until you know definitively whether or not what you said was, in fact, a "blunder."

God Bless

[Laudate_Dominum]

Dang! Thanks Theologian in Training! I've never received applause before!

I want to draw attention to a previous post where I gave an explaination of the doctrine in more detail.

http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s...opic=6422&st=0&

This thread is a basic presentation for someone who wants to know what the doctrine does and doesn't say.

Peace.

[Laudate_Dominum]

This is why Marian Consecration is so powerful. We are all consecrated to Our Lady whether we know it or not, but by making it explicit it becomes more efficacious because you are more open to the channels of Grace. When you stay close to Our Lady you can't help but recieve all kinds of cool Graces. The image I think of is that, since Our Lady is the fulfillment of the Ark of the Covenant, for a Christian to try and live the Christian life without Our Lady close by is like the Israelites going into battle without the Ark. With Her a sure victory is at hand.

This is a quote from a different thread. I bring it up because it kind of applies to one of the many reasons why proclaiming this doctrine a dogma is important. When something is proclaimed a dogma there is an outpouring of grace. When Our Lady was proclaimed Mother of God at the Council of Ephesus what followed was a time of great spiritual richness for fruitfullness for the Church. When this doctrine is proclaimed dogma it's truth will become more efficacious and actualized in the life of the Church. Many believe (and Our Lady has said this in an apparition in Amsterdam in the 1950's) that the proclaimation of the dogma will be the beginning of the Triumph of the Immaculate Heart. I firmly believe this too.

As a side note, during on of the apparitions in Amsterdam, Ida Peerdeman (the woman who Our Lady appeared to) was given a vision of the proclaimation of the dogma and she described the pope as a frail old man in something like a chair with wheels. Anyway, the description she gave (in the 1950's) reminds me of how the Pope looks these days. So I wouldn't be surprised if Pope John Paul II is the one to do this. But we'll see I suppose.

Edited February 8, 2004 by Laudate_Dominum

[BLAZEr]

Laudate, are you Mark Miravalle's son?

lol . . .

I used to think the 5th Marian Dogma was a good idea. I don't anymore. Not that I don't believe she is the Co-Redemptrix, just that I am not convinced this Dogma is necessary, especially if all of this is already contained in what the Church already teaches about Her.

[cmotherofpirl]

I think the chances of this being proclaimed are slim.

[Laudate_Dominum]

Laudate, are you Mark Miravalle's son?

::

Actually I saw his son at Mass once and we kind of have a resemblance. LOL!!

[BLAZEr]

Do you go to Steubenville?

[Laudate_Dominum]

I used to think the 5th Marian Dogma was a good idea. I don't anymore. Not that I don't believe she is the Co-Redemptrix, just that I am not convinced this Dogma is necessary, especially if all of this is already contained in what the Church already teaches about Her.

As I've said before, I think the fact that the doctrine is so unknown and misunderstood (and misrepresented) in our day is reason to focus on it. It is quite central to the Catholic Faith. I believe it touches upon everything distinctly Catholic. Just as the proclaimation of Theotokos was a touchstone of orthodoxy in the early church, I believe this dogma would be the same for our age.

Matthias Scheeben, whom Cardinal Ratzinger has called "the greatest german theologian ever", believed that the truths of Our Lady (and he had this doctrine in mine particularly) are like a hub of Catholic Theology, or a point of reference and intersection for all the branches of Theology (Soteriology, Ecclesiology, etc.)

I must say the more I study the more I see his point. Our Lady is a living compedium of God's saving work in time, and the brightest icon of His Love.

Also consider that Karl Bath (perhaps the most brilliant protestant theologian ever) considered the essential difference between protestant and Catholic Theology to be precisely the concept of subordinate mediation which is what the doctrine of Mediatrix proclaims in it's fullest and most vivid expression (consider prots either/or mentality vs. the Catholic both/and, also the basic dynamisms of reformation theology as the rejection of mediation, ecclesiological, sacramental, etc. this dynamism has only grown since then, the ultimate expression being "me/Jesus/Bible" christianity which has little place for mediation of any kind, although in practice it is impossible to avoid).

Similarly Coredemptrix exemplifies the aspect of the coredemptive activity of the Church and of Christian life. When these realities are not proclaimed or are obscured corruption results. The state of the Church today reflects this.

I believe this dogma would be a profound assertion of everything that is wholly Catholic and would be a destroyer of heresies. None of the heretical, liberal, modernist "catholic" theologies that have emerged in the last 40 years would be able to deal with it and would be uncovered as the imposters they are. It would solidly reaffirm the grounding of Catholic Theology ensuring authentic ecumenism as opposed to comprimised false-ecumenism. And it would deepen the faithful's understanding of the Catholic Faith, of God's Love for mankind, of Christ's plan of Salvation, of the nature of the Church and what it means to be a Christian, etc, etc...

The Fathers called Mary the "pillar of orthodoxy" because of the way her doctrines guide Catholic thought as the "star of the sea" guides ships. The Liturgy (prior to Vatican II) refers to Mary as "she who hath destroyed all heresies", the Akathist hymn in the East has similar sentiments, this is because correct doctrine and devotion to Our Lady is always the indicator of orthodoxy and her doctrines guide the way to the true understanding of Christian revelation in it's fulness.

I also think that proclaiming this dogma will be a profoundly beneficial and I'd say singularly invaluable influence in the development of an authentic Catholic feminist and theology of marriage & family, and of human sexuality. Mary's forefront position in Catholicism proclaims the dignity and unique goodness of femininity, maternity, and woman in general. The culture of death needs the Marian presence.

I could go on and on but at least know that I think there is an incredible host of reasons. Most of which I haven't the room to get into.

I think the chances of this being proclaimed are slim.

Considering there is a huge movement involving hundreds of high ranking clergy to proclaim this dogma I think this is a hasty judgement.

This dogma would come from the top down anyway, as did the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption. The Pope could do it whenever he wants and considering he uses the titles and expounds upon the doctrines he clearly thinks this doctrine is important. I must admit that much of my certainty comes from private revelation. I believe that this doctrine (and it's proclaimation as dogma) is directly linked with the Marian apparitions of the last 500 years. This is the "age of Mary" as it's been called. And Our Lady is certainly interested in dogma (recall St. Catherine Laboure & the Immaculate Conception as well as Lourdes and "I am the Immaculate Conception"). Our Lady has been coming to us as the Mediatrix, the Coredemptrix and the Advocate. All three of these roles are summarized masterfully in the Miraculous Medal which was designed by Our Lady Herself!

And of course the Amsterdam apparitions of the 1950's explicitly call for, and prophesy this dogma and explain it's significance. Since this apparition is approved on the level of the local bishop it seems like an indication that the contents of it are considered orthodox and important.

Edited February 8, 2004 by Laudate_Dominum

[Laudate_Dominum]

Do you go to Steubenville?

No, but I've taken classes there in the past. Did you go to Steubz? Do you know Mark?

[willguy]

Theo,

I technically stand by my statement. However, in the context of the discussion, the word "Co-Redeemer" had gained a different implication that the way in which I was using it. I saw it as more practical for the discussion for me to simply drop the word co-redeemer and put my definition of what I meant by it in its place than to have two definitions of the word floating around in the same discussion.

[M.SIGGA]

Thanks a mil Laudate...again lol. I got to reading those other links today and they are also very good and informative.

[jmjtina]

Professor Mark Miravalle Views a Marian Feast

this is interesting. I have his book on the Blessed Mother being the Co-Redemptrix......and she is. LD, amesome work!

[Laudate_Dominum]

Thank you tina! That's quite an excellent article. :cool:

[marielapin]

Laudate, thanks for posting such great info on such a commonly misunderstood topic. Hey, when I first heard of it I balked just as much as Brother Adam...of course, I balked at the Assumption and the Immaculate Conception as well. Actually learning what is meant by these dogmas and doctrine and the key behind understanding. The Marian dogmas/doctrines were the single biggest hump I had to cross in becoming Catholic.

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of the Father,

Send now Your Spirit over the earth.

Let the Holy Spirit live in the hearts of all peoples,

that they may be preserved from corruption, disaster, and war.

May the Lady of all Peoples who once was Mary be our advocate, Amen.

Do you still have more questions, Bro. Adam?