Co-redemptrix

[Brother Adam]

Wow. As it stands there is no way I can accept that teaching....

[Norseman82]

Brother Adam, paragraphs 967-970 of the Catechism should be of help in understanding what the Catholic Church teaches about Mary's role in our salvation (it all boils down to/stems from the fact because she said "Yes" to God, Jesus came into the world).

[BLAZEr]

Think about St. Paul here, Bro Adam. Think here Colossian 1:24 . . . what is Paul saying? That Christ didn't suffer enough? That it wasn't his sacrifice alone, but his along with Paul's that reconciled the Colossians from sin?

No, Paul is saying here that he cooperates with Christ's saving act, in a particular way through his love and work for the Colossians. All of us, in a way, can be co-redeemers with Christ (co does not mean equal). All of us can participate in that one saving act of Christ in different ways. Some of us can be missionaries who will take Christ to people who have never met him. Some of us will care for the sick, poor, and needy in a way that helps them to know Christ.

And one of us, in a singular and extraordinary way, said yes to God before knowing Christ but said yes in a such a full and complete way that in her womb, her barren and hopeless womb, there came forth life. Her "yes" was necessary for our salvation. Her yes made his saving act possible.

It's scandalous to think that God would allow salvation to depend on a mere human, but that's exactly what happened. And it continues to happen today. Salvation depends on mere humans spreading the Good News of the Gospel. But there would be no Gospel if not for that one human we call Mary.

And we believe that Mary was so united with her son's heart that she suffere with him through his passion, (cum (with) passione (suffering) . . . compassionate). Mary is the model of compassion becasue she was of one heart with her son, whom she followed to the Cross. Her sorrow and her letting him go to his death is for us the primary way to understand how to love Jesus on the Cross. So mary is our primary teacher in understanding the Passion.

This whole thing might make more sense after watching Mel Gibson's movie. I hear he does a good job of demonstrating this compassion.

Anyway . . . let's keep dialoguing about it . . . let's make sure we both understand this idea of "co-redemptrix" better and correctly . . . in its truth . . .

[M.SIGGA]

where does it officially say that co-redemptorix is an official teaching? I was taught it was a belief by some, but nothing official. I heard Mother Angelica say that she encourages it be made an official teaching. I also heard the the eastern orthodox hope catholics don't make it official because it could damage relations or something like that. I also remember a petition being passed around in my parish to make it an official teaching. I like Mary's role just where it always has been - like don't make it dogma or anything.

[BLAZEr]

The question isn't whether this is believed or not in traditional catholic theolgoy, M.Sigga (it is) the question is whether this should be combined into a 5th marian Dogma . . . which is saying that it must be believed definitively in a particular way by all Christians (obviously non-catholics don't have to believe it, they disbelieve plenty of other stuff).

That's a big step and I'm not sure I think its a good step.

[Brother Adam]

I'm seeing a cycle emerge here. Mary is first elevated very very high with these grand titles and words...Queen of Heaven, Advocate, comedatrix, coredemptrix, Blessed Virgin, increadibly higher than anyone else in salvic history, accept Christ Himself- King of King, Lord of Lords, Lamb of God, Emmanuel.

I then say- hey wait a second this isn't right to elavate Mary to such a high level, since these titles make her much greater than "infinitely subordinate".

Then you say "well think of these people who play much of a similair role like Mary did."

Well, then why isn't Paul also called coredemptrix and advocate? Naturally, because Mary holds a higher place right?

And here we go again...

[BLAZEr]

no, you're right . . . Mary is different from Paul, and from us . . . she is unique, unparallelled . . . we do honor her in a distinct way from others . . .

In Mary is a unique participation in Christ's life, death, and resurrection. Mary is for us, a model of what we are to be like. Is it possible for someone to be completely subordinate to Christ yet uniquely exalted among men? If it is, then that is Mary. However, despite her exaltedness among men "from this day all generations will call me Blessed, the almighty has done great things for me and Holy is his name" . . . Mary's unique role is entirely dependant and received from the singular act of Grace which is the incarnation of her son, who is God.

Can you tell me Bro Adam, how do you understand Mary . . .

[M.SIGGA]

Thanks Blazer for the reply. I had to fight a Mary-phobia when I came back to the Faith from a Protestant church and this topic sort of brought me back for a second. The idea of a new dogma sort of makes me feel weird. Has Mary been referred to this ever before throughout history, or is this something stemming from the last Marian Dogma declared by Pius XII?

[Laudate_Dominum]

where does it officially say that co-redemptorix is an official teaching? I was taught it was a belief by some, but nothing official. I heard Mother Angelica say that she encourages it be made an official teaching.

It already is an official teaching. There are different ways for a doctrine to be a definitive teaching. The highest form is through an official dogmatic proclaimation.

Another way is through the ordinary magisterium, that is if something is taught repetedly by the Church it is an official and definitive doctrine even if it's not defined dogmatically. This is the case for the doctrine of Our Lady's Spiritual Motherhood. The doctrine of Our Lady as Co-Redemptrix, Mediatrix and Advocate is one doctrine not three. It's the three aspects of the one doctrine. This truth has been taught throughout the history of the Church from the earliest Fathers of the Church all the way up to Pope John Paul II. Look at any systematic Mariology text from before the 1960's and I assure you that you will find this doctrine. Mariology has been kind of watered down since the sixties because of false ecumenism and Marian minimalism. The Pope has used the title Co-Redemptrix at least ten times in an official public address since he's been Pope. I have a book that is nothing but quotes from Popes speaking in encyclicals and things about Our Lady and Co-Redemptrix, Mediatrix and Advocate. There are probably hundreds of quotes in this text. And while it does not give a full systematic exposition of the doctrine, it is also contained in the Dogmatic Constitution on the Church from Vatican II (read chapter 8). So it's a constant part of Tradition, it's been repeatedly taught by the ordinary magisterium and the doctrine (though not always the titles) is contained in many authoritative Church documents. In other words it's a definitive doctrine of the Catholic Church.

I also heard the the eastern orthodox hope catholics don't make it official because it could damage relations or something like that.

This is true to some extent. Not all Orthodox oppose the doctrine and it's silly because it's in their Tradition anyway. Most of the attacks against this doctrine are ecumenically motivated. But ecumenism should never be an excuse to water down the faith. It's sad that Mariology has often been watered down because of false ecumenism. Since the Pope uses the titles I think it's safe to say that it's fine.

I also remember a petition being passed around in my parish to make it an official teaching. I like Mary's role just where it always has been - like don't make it dogma or anything.

There is a movement called Vox Populi Mariae Mediatrici which exists to promote the proclaimation of the dogma.

Vox Populi Mariae Mediatrici (Voice of the People for Mary Mediatrix) is an international lay organization that seeks to work for the papal definition of our Lady as Coredemptrix, Mediatrix, and Advocate

.... and has already received nearly 7 million petitions. Vox Populi has also received the endorsements of 43 cardinals and over 550 bishops worldwide from the Universal Church. The two previous popes who defined Marian Dogma, Pius IX and Pius XII, both referred to the international petitions of the faithful as one of the criteria that led to the final acts of papally defining the Marian dogmas of the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption.

And it's already a doctrine so that's not the issue. The issue is that it's often ignored or unknown in our times and Our Lady wants it to be fully recognized by everyone as does Jesus Christ. I would not be at all surprised if the Holy Father proclaims this dogma before the end of his pontificate.

Edited February 8, 2004 by Laudate_Dominum

[M.SIGGA]

hmm... thanks Laudate, but this is sort of news to me lol. It's hard for me to just read something and believe it in a snap, so I'll be reading up and praying about it.

Dogmatic Constitution on the Church from Vatican II (read chapter 8).

Do you know if this is available online or where would I find it, without having to pretend to be buying something at the overpriced :D DStP Catholic Bookstore?

[Laudate_Dominum]

Has Mary been referred to this ever before throughout history, or is this something stemming from the last Marian Dogma declared by Pius XII?

I've discussed this a bit in some other threads. Basically the doctrine has been in the Church since the beginning. The earliest Fathers (first and second century) speak of Our Lady as the New Eve in ways that summarize the doctrine in many respects. The titles themselves have a different history. The title Mediatrix is very ancient as is Advocate. The title Co-Redemptrix originated in the 15th century but is just an adaptation of a much more ancient title for Our Lady "Redemptrix" which goes back to the patristic era. But the essential doctrine itself is not new or novel. It is contained in the Fathers and has developed in the sense of becoming more systematically understood. From the very beginning of systematic Marian Theology you have this doctrine being expounded, long before Pope Pius XII. It is not really connected with the proclaimation of the Assumption. But the movement to proclaim it a dogma is loosely connected with that. As I've mentioned before when Vatican II first met for it's preliminary sessions the Bishops voted in favor of proclaiming this truth a dogma but as the council developed the focus changed and became more ecumenical and ecclesiological.

Edited February 8, 2004 by Laudate_Dominum

[Laudate_Dominum]

Do you know if this is available online or where would I find it, without having to pretend to be buying something at the overpriced

Sure:

http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_council...gentium_en.html

Chapter 8 is the one that talks about Our Lady's role in the life of the Church.

You might want to check out this site too:

http://www.voxpopuli.org

This site has some great resources on this doctrine too:

http://www.marymediatrix.com/

In case anyone is interested in some serious books:

http://www.queenship.org/catalog/voxpo.html

Edited February 8, 2004 by Laudate_Dominum

[hyperdulia again]

Mary, Queen of the Universe, Mother of the Sovereign Lord, I exalt thee!

Mother of the Verum Corpus, pray for us.

[M.SIGGA]

Thanks a mil Laudaute. I read through Ch.8, part V and if that's co-redemptorix, then I believe it. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's basically saying that Mary can help us get to know Jesus or she always helps us if we know it or not? The only concern I have with it being a dogma is that many people don't have a particular cult of the BVM that they follow, and some Catholics have none at all, and it's my understanding that the Church has always let people have an individual relationship with the Blessed Mother based on how they feel called to aproach her. A Co-redemptrix/mediatrix dogma would eliminate this. I personally have a devotion to Our Mother of Perpetual Help, and I love the Blessed Mother, but I don't call her out for intercession every time I pray other than a "pray for us" maybe before I make the Sign of the Cross. It seems like this would have to change if this was made a Dogma. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Laudate_Dominum]

Thanks a mil Laudaute. I read through Ch.8, part V and if that's co-redemptorix, then I believe it. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's basically saying that Mary can help us get to know Jesus or she always helps us if we know it or not? The only concern I have with it being a dogma is that many people don't have a particular cult of the BVM that they follow, and some Catholics have none at all, and it's my understanding that the Church has always let people have an individual relationship with the Blessed Mother based on how they feel called to aproach her. A Co-redemptrix/mediatrix dogma would eliminate this. I personally have a devotion to Our Mother of Perpetual Help, and I love the Blessed Mother, but I don't call her out for intercession every time I pray other than a "pray for us" maybe before I make the Sign of the Cross. It seems like this would have to change if this was made a Dogma. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

The doctrine of Our Lady's Maternal Mediation, a.k.a. Spiritual Motherhood, is contained in LG8, but it doesn't claim to be a full exposition of the doctrine so there is much more that can be said about it. If you are particularly motivated I would suggest picking up a book (the link I gave above has some of the best books on the subject).

The proclaimation of the dogma would not require a change in one's personal devotion so I wouldn't worry about that. But it would make people see more deeply the place of Our Lady in God's plan and thus have a deeper understanding and basis for their devotion to her.

The titles (Mediatrix, Coredemprix, Adovocate) are aspects of the doctrine, and while they can be used in private devotion (many great saints were very fond of these titles), you don't have to, and if your Marian devotion is more about Mary as the Mother of Perpetual Help that would not change. Just like when the Immaculate Conception was defined it didn't mean that people had to change their devotional life. But one notices in the lives of many saints that they know Mary's spiritual Motherhood very deeply and explicitly. St. Francis entrusted himself to Mary from the very beginning as his Spiritual Mother and called Her his Mediatrix. He also entrusted his order to Our Lady as it's Advocate and guide. And many saints (including Francis I would argue) had experiences of mystical union with Mary as Coredemptrix at the foot of the Cross and through these experiences bore much fruit after the model or Mary (St. Margaret of Cortona, Angela of Foligno, St. Veronica Giuliani, etc..). This is an area I've kind of studied on my own so it might sound new, but it's true. What Kolbe calls "transubstantiation into the Immaculate". In studying saints lives and mystical experiences I have discerned a pattern in their spiritual growth that represents a conformity to, and sharing in Mary's Immaculate Heart. I hope to write something official on it someday. Saints who became conformed to the image of the Immaculate Mediatrix and Coredemptrix. In many times this occurs quite vividly in what I call mystical identification with Mary. I also interpret the experiences of countless saints who recieved the Christ Child (Anthony of Padua, Margaret of Cortona, Teresa of Avila, Catherine of Siena, etc..) as an experience of mystical identification with Mary and mystical participation in Her Spiritual Motherhood. I always find the aspects of Coredemptive love, subordinate mediation, and advocacy in connection with these experiences. I also relate this with the Holy Eucharist because Mary is the perfect model of the dispositions proper to recieving Christ in the Eucharist. This is the moment when we all stand with Mary at the foot of the cross, and after the model of Our Lady as she first received the God-Man at the Annunciation.

Anyway, I'm kind of getting off track. I hope I answered your questions.