'hymns'

[Noel's angel]

We have some 'hokey-kokey, lets hug a tree' type influences in our choir, who insist that there is nothing wrong with singing hymns as if we are God. I HATE them with a passion (the hymns not the people who like them). I've tried telling them that we shouldn't sing as if we are God, but they don't listen. Are their any authoratative statements that I could use to nip this ridiculous craze in the bud? If not, can anyone help me with my response to these hymns?

Edited August 20, 2007 by Noel's angel

[jeffpugh]

Vatican council says chant is pride of place... that's all the leverage I've got... basically, music is not supposed to take away from the solemnity of the mass... I'm sure a V2 document says that as well... but I've found in some circles (I'm only a teen who has tried a similar crusade in school), people don't wanna sing real music. They're happy inside their bubble, and you could go on about it till you go red in the face (like your avatar), nothing will happen. Okay, maybe my post is some what a waste, but I'm just saying you're not alone in this type of struggle... emphasise solemnity and latin, though, and you should be fine... I'll find out (or someone might get to it before me) what document(s) involves music. God bless in your endevours!

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[Noel's angel]

Thanks It's so frustrating sometimes. Some people think that as long as something sounds nice, then it's wonderful and should be used for Mass. It's crazy...

[adt6247]

[quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1364005' date='Aug 20 2007, 12:18 AM']Vatican council says chant is pride of place... that's all the leverage I've got... basically, music is not supposed to take away from the solemnity of the mass... I'm sure a V2 document says that as well...[/quote]
[i][url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19631204_sacrosanctum-concilium_en.html"]Sacrosanctum Concilium[/url][/i], chapter VI: Sacred Music, particularly paragraph 116:

[quote name='Sacrosanctum Concilium']116. The Church acknowledges [b]Gregorian chant[/b] as specially suited to the Roman liturgy: therefore, other things being equal, it should be given [b]pride of place[/b] in liturgical services.

But other kinds of sacred music, especially polyphony, are by no means excluded from liturgical celebrations, so long as they accord with the spirit of the liturgical action, as laid down in Art. 30.[/quote]

Emphasis mine

Edited August 20, 2007 by adt6247

[Noel's angel]

I'm aware of what has been said already (thanks though!). I just need a decent argument for not using hymns that have the people singing as if they are God.

[jeffpugh]

Well, the reason for mass is to worship God. Let's take this from a Chestertonian point of view: basically, this singing as if one is God is a very prideful thing. Chesterton has said in "Orthodoxy" that people who do great things are humble. Why? Because they are able to look up. A person building a skyscraper has some level of humility, because he is realizing he's not the tallest thing in the world, but knows that something taller can be built. Basically, because people place themselves above God, they do not get to see the beauty of worshiping God from "on the floor" so to speak... maybe what I'm trying to say is they should get out of the choir loft and get a lesson. Chant and Polyphony is great music because the composers saw themselves as tiny creatures of God and they want to make something suitable, though they know they will fall short. Singing music saying that you are God has no room for improvement. It sits there being crass and repetitive.

Okay... I hope you can get something from that mess of words.

Keep fighting the Good fight.

[Theoketos]

I am on it.

[Theoketos]

The Cult of Conceit: Why Are We Singing to Each Other?

A conversation demands that we include the other in the discussion. If someone speaks to you about himself, about you, about himself and you, but never really with you, you would call that person conceited. So have we become in our conversation with God: He humbles Himself to dwell among us under the form of bread and wine, while we ignore Him and sing about ourselves and to ourselves.

Of course, many traditional hymns also address the other believers rather than God. But a close look at such hymns (for example, "Now thank we all our God", "Praise, my soul, the King of heaven", or "Ye watchers and ye holy ones") reveals a crucial difference: the traditional hymns address others only to invite them to worship God, while most contemporary songs invite us to glorify ourselves.

"Bread of Life" by Rory Cooney, provides a splendid example of this self-centered conversation. The theme of the song lends itself to the Communion rite. But unfortunately, the words distort the meaning of Communion and the dialogue that should be taking place:

I myself am the bread of life
you and I are the bread of life
taken and blessed, broken and shared
by Christ
that the world may live.

Aside from the fact that this song radically distorts Our Lord 's "Bread of Life" discourse, it also leaves God out of the conversation: we talk to ourselves. As the communicants come forward to receive the living God, they are singing about themselves. "Sing a New Church", a triumphalist paean to diversity by Delores Dufner, OSB, also fosters the Cult of Us:

Let us bring the gifts that differ
And, in splendid, varied ways,
Sing a new Church into being,
One in faith and love and praise

So the chorus goes, and the verses similarly proclaim us to ourselves. Passing over the tremendous ecclesiological problems in the text, we should question what the song communicates to the congregation: songs about us constitute worship of the Almighty. We have replaced Him as the focus of worship.

From

[url="http://www.adoremus.org/399Scalia.html"]http://www.adoremus.org/399Scalia.html[/url]

[Noel's angel]

Thanks everyone!!!

[Paddington]

I don't know what to say about the issue. My preference would be with y'all's preference tho.

When I was little, I felt very weird with "I am the Lord of the Dance......said he"

I put the '.....' in there myself, because the 'said he' part could never come soon enough even tho it immediately followed. Eventually, I "got over it" and tried not to have uncomfortable thoughts during the singing.

The song "Here I am Lord. Is it I Lord? I have heard you calling in the night.........."
That one is actually a duet with God and whoever. I don't know what that amounts to, but just throwing that out there in case sb has an insight about it.

[Noel's angel]

Thankfully, I've never heard anyone sing 'The Lord of the Dance' at Mass. I think our priest would go mad. I've only ever heard kids sing 'Here I Am Lord'-none of the main choirs sing it.

[cmotherofpirl]

You can talk to them til you are blue in the face. Because of radio, TV, and now the internet people EXPECT catchy tunes. The trick is to find singable good hymns to replace the " me generation" hymns currently out there. Until we can do that, I fear the battle is in their favor.
Our best best is to get people [b]writing[/b] good singable hymns. We have a whole board of artists here, maybe they will be the first to step up to the challenge [ big hint!]

[Noel's angel]

You're right. I've been trying to throw in a few more 'good' hymns. It's difficult sometimes though because people are often reluctant to accept that the hymns they have been singing are somehow deficient.
Let's pray to God to inspire people to write good, solid, Catholic hymns for Mass!

Edited August 21, 2007 by Noel's angel

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Noel's angel' post='1365657' date='Aug 21 2007, 01:48 PM']You're right. I've been trying to throw in a few more 'good' hymns. It's difficult sometimes though because people are often reluctant to accept that the hymns they have been singing are somehow deficient.
Let's pray to God to inspire people to write good, solid, Catholic hymns for Mass![/quote]

You don't necessarily have to make them understand their hymns are deficient, just give them something better theologically and equally singable.

[Megz]

I have a neurological problem that makes chant painful to me, any chant, weither it be religious or not.

And while the lyrics to "that 70's music" is irritating I'd rather deal with than than pain. I like the new music "modern" stuff you might hear on the radio because its typically doctrinally sound, not too me-centered and such.

Once upon a time chant was just how they sang, its a type of music I think we've "holyified" for our benefit in traditional circles, just like we did with the Christmas tree, just like we did with different things that fall on feast days. Just like we have with garments that we consider holy. Monks and Nuns once wore simple, ordinary clothes, that looked like what people wore, and while I can appreciate their new mission of using clothing as an evangalization tool, to simply put what was ordinarly done at a time and make it something holy is silly. For instance, think of how funny it would be to us if in 500 years rubber WWJD bracelets were worn as a sign of fidelity to Jesus, just as we might put a fish symbol on our car bumper today.