Church Stance On Iraq War?

[LouisvilleFan]

One of my co-workers today got me into a conversation about the Church's stance on the Iraq war. It's not something I've really given much consideration since I've always felt there was justification for invading Iraq (not because of WMDs so much as ties to terrorism and consistently breaking UN peace agreements, not allowing inspectors, etc.). However, it seems that both Pope John Paul II and Benedict XVI have challenged Bush and Blair on conducting this war.

Of course, I'm separating this matter from other socially liberal opinions. One should be able to agree with the Church on all matters of faith and morals and also be against the Iraq war. In fact, I wonder if that shouldn't be our stance since Catholicism is consistently pro-life. However, apparently most of us are either silent or in support of the war, so I'm curious to know how support for the war (in apparently contradiction to our pope's guidance) is consistent with our faith?

[shortnun]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1360102' date='Aug 16 2007, 11:48 AM']One of my co-workers today got me into a conversation about the Church's stance on the Iraq war. It's not something I've really given much consideration since I've always felt there was justification for invading Iraq (not because of WMDs so much as ties to terrorism and consistently breaking UN peace agreements, not allowing inspectors, etc.). However, it seems that both Pope John Paul II and Benedict XVI have challenged Bush and Blair on conducting this war.

Of course, I'm separating this matter from other socially liberal opinions. One should be able to agree with the Church on all matters of faith and morals and also be against the Iraq war. In fact, I wonder if that shouldn't be our stance since Catholicism is consistently pro-life. However, apparently most of us are either silent or in support of the war, so I'm curious to know how support for the war (in apparently contradiction to our pope's guidance) is consistent with our faith?[/quote]
Well, I would agree with your last sentence and say that we can't support this war without contradicting our faith. And if you (or your coworker) is interested, here are documents from the USCCB over the past few years regarding the war. After reading them, I can not- in good conscience- consider this a [i]just [/i]war. Unfortunately I don't think these statements are publicized widely or loudly enough, IMHO.

[b][url="http://www.usccb.org/sdwp/peace/"]Iraq: The Way To Peace - Resources for Dioceses and Parishes[/url][/b]

[b][url="http://www.usccb.org/sdwp/peace/churchleaders.shtml"]Statements from popes and non US bishops[/url][/b]

[b][url="http://www.usccb.org/sdwp/international/iraq.shtml"]All USCCB statments on Iraq and the war[/url][/b]

Edited August 16, 2007 by shortnun

[Maggyie]

I was under the impression that there was no definitive "stance" on this issue. There is an entire Archdiocese entirely devoted to the US military, and I would imagine that if there was some binding directive from the Church, the Archbishop would have given his flock some guidance about it. My brother is a Marine, and as his dog tags make clear, he is a Roman Catholic. There are so many [i]serious [/i]Catholics, in the officer corps and in the ranks that I can't imagine there's not a broad range of opinions allowed on the subject.

Or we would a much larger number of conscientious objectors

Of course one can't just dismiss it when the pope says something about a topic... He's usually got his intellectual ducks in a row...

Edited August 16, 2007 by Maggie

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='shortnun' post='1360106' date='Aug 16 2007, 12:58 PM'][b][url="http://www.usccb.org/sdwp/peace/"]Iraq: The Way To Peace - Resources for Dioceses and Parishes[/url][/b]

[b][url="http://www.usccb.org/sdwp/peace/churchleaders.shtml"]Statements from popes and non US bishops[/url][/b]

[b][url="http://www.usccb.org/sdwp/international/iraq.shtml"]All USCCB statments on Iraq and the war[/url][/b][/quote]

Thanks for the links... I'm sure my co-worker (who doesn't seem to hold any particular spiritual beliefs from what I've gathered, except maybe that there is a God) will be interested in getting some "official" info.

I think it doesn't get more attention because, like the death penalty, it's one of those "liberal" issues that "conservatives" should be in agreement with, but because we tend to throw the baby out with the bathwater, we ignore some of these issues only because we might be tagged as a bleeding heart liberal. It's easier to just go along with the popular conservative agenda instead of following the Church, who doesn't fit either mold.

[quote name='Maggie' post='1360280' date='Aug 16 2007, 06:03 PM']I was under the impression that there was no definitive "stance" on this issue. There is an entire Archdiocese entirely devoted to the US military, and I would imagine that if there was some binding directive from the Church, the Archbishop would have given his flock some guidance about it. My brother is a Marine, and as his dog tags make clear, he is a Roman Catholic. There are so many [i]serious [/i]Catholics, in the officer corps and in the ranks that I can't imagine there's not a broad range of opinions allowed on the subject.

Or we would a much larger number of conscientious objectors

Of course one can't just dismiss it when the pope says something about a topic... He's usually got his intellectual ducks in a row...[/quote]

I don't think there is a definitive stance, probably because it's difficult to know all the facts about wars, and it can come down to what you consider to be a justified war. My co-worker and his dad were both in the Army, and he just retired a few years ago. He mentioned to me that there were some soldiers, some of them Catholics, who were put in prison for telling their superiors that they didn't wouldn't to fight in Iraq for moral reasons. Basically, he says the military will tolerate small minority faiths who are adamently pacifist, like Quakers, by assigning them to medical positions in the field. But if a Protestant or Catholic stands up against the war, they be silenced ASAP, lest they lead others of their faith to oppose the war.

Soldiers are notorious for not talking about the war after returning home, and sometimes I wonder if their silence about what goes on (which is usually the brain's psychological reaction to avoid re-living horrific experiences) allows us to keep believing that the only people who could be against the Iraq war are those liberals "over there," and people who never risked their own blood on the battlefield.

I may sound a little harsh... I'm just thinking out loud more than anything. I've never been strongly in favor or against the Iraqi invasion. It's such a complicated issue and it's so difficult to get factual, unbiased info from the media, that I mostly ignore opinions about it.

Edited August 17, 2007 by LouisvilleFan

[StColette]

Simple answer:

The Church has no official stance on the Iraq War.


The Holy Father however prays daily for peace in the middle east and has spoken out personally about his opinion of the war as well as John Paul II did before him.

[Maggyie]

I would ask your co-worker to provide the names of these individuals who were supposedly imprisoned for conscientiously objecting. There are established procedures in place for soldiers and Marines who develop a deep moral objection to carrying arms. Imprisonment is not among them.

Perhaps he is confused and is thinking of people who deserted or who went AWOL? These are crimes that contradict the oath that servicemen swear when they enter the military, while conscientious objection is not.

I would also be fascinated to discover what he means by military personnel being "silenced."

It is true that there is a large conservative, Christian bloc that is opposed to the war. A good blog from that point of view is [url="http://sergesblog.blogspot.com/"]A Conservative Blog for Peace. [/url]

Edited August 17, 2007 by Maggie

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Maggie' post='1360847' date='Aug 17 2007, 12:37 AM']I would ask your co-worker to provide the names of these individuals who were supposedly imprisoned for conscientiously objecting. There are established procedures in place for soldiers and Marines who develop a deep moral objection to carrying arms. Imprisonment is not among them.

Perhaps he is confused and is thinking of people who deserted or who went AWOL? These are crimes that contradict the oath that servicemen swear when they enter the military, while conscientious objection is not.[/quote]

He said they interpreted it as basically going AWOL. It is one of those stories that's difficult to judge how much is factual, and I suspect he doesn't have all the facts, but at the same time I'm not going to pretend that just because we're the United States that those kinds of things don't go down sometimes, or that we always follow Geneva Convention, do everything we can to protect civilians, etc. I know the vast majority of our troops are doing the right thing, but the military is also filled with people in powerful positions and some of them are going to take advantage of that... just the way it is.

Still, the main reason for this thread is to learn more about how the Church's moral teaching might be applied to the Iraq war. Has there been any bishop to speak favorably of the Iraqi invasion?

[LouisvilleFan]

I found those quotes interesting... funny that you never hear these statements in the news, huh?

Joaquin Navarro-Valls, Vatican spokesman, Interview with Catholic News Service, March 5, 2003
[quote]The Vatican sees the United Nations as the guarantor of international law, and so it would view any action outside U.N. authorization as very dangerous….[T]he concept of ‘preventive war' is not found in the moral principles of just-war theory—not even if it is authorized by a vote of the United Nations.[/quote]

Cardinal Angelo Sodano, Vatican Secretary of State, interview with Italian Reporters, January 29, 2003
[quote]We're asking for reflection not only on whether a war would be just or unjust, moral or immoral, but also whether it is opportune to irritate a billion followers of Islam….We are against the war. That is a moral position, and there's not much that needs to be said about whether (the war) is "preventive" or "nonpreventive." It's an ambiguous term. Certainly the war is not defensive.[/quote]

Joaquin Navarro-Valls, Vatican spokesman, Statement to journalists, Vatican City, March 18, 2003 [quote]Whoever decides that all peaceful means made by international law have been exhausted assumes a serious responsibility before God, his conscience and history.[/quote]

Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, Prefect of the Vatican Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, September 21, 2002
[quote]The concept of a "preventive war" does not appear in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.[/quote]

[beatty07]

It's not commonly known that the government's idea of a "conscientious objector" includes only the individual who is opposed for religious reasons or by deep moral conviction to ANY war at ANY time. It does not apply, legally, to an individual who accepts the possibility of a just war but deems a particular war unjust. In other words, "conscientious objectors" are only total pacifists.

[Maggyie]

[quote]Has there been any bishop to speak favorably of the Iraqi invasion?[/quote]

I can't think of a single one.

The reason we do not hear about those statements you quoted in the news is because they are all from 2003 But I assure you that at the time that they were current they were fairly well-publicized It is not even the first time I have seem them in a handy compilation! What is frustrating for Catholic military families is when the remarks from Cardinal Sodano, or from Mr. Navarro-Valls, or even from the Pope, are presented as proof that one cannot be a good Catholic and disagree, that "we can't support this war without contradicting our faith" as Shortnun put it.

(Please note, I am not in favor of it myself, but I always feel obliged to defend Catholics like Marine General Pace, who is (was) the Chairman of the JCS, or my brother, who as I said is also a Marine, or Captain Scalia, one of Justice Scalia's sons, who is unfortunately not in the Marines but in the Army (grrr!)

Archbishop Chaput, who is opposed to the war, [url="http://www.archden.org/archbishop/docs/4_02_03_iraq_judgment.htm"]wrote a good column[/url] on this just after the war began. He mentions the Archdiocese for the Military Services and Archbishop O'Brien, who was recently promoted to the See in Baltimore. I wish all Catholics were more familiar with [url="http://www.milarch.org/"]the AMS[/url]. Territory-wise, it is the largest archdiocese in the United States, since its borders extend from the mainland US to Korea to Iraq to Kosovo! There is also a crucial shortage of priests in the Archdiocese, as the Catholic chaplains are all self-selected priests from dioceses whose bishops must give them the green-light to serve. While many bishops are generous, many can not really spare priests for the military service. As you might imagine, access to a priest is in many ways more critical for those on a battlefield than for those of us at home.

It is the Archbishop who is ultimately responsible for the moral welfare of his flock. As far as I know the Vatican has never over-ridden any of his pastoral judgments about military service in the war zone.

Edited August 17, 2007 by Maggie

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Maggie' post='1361180' date='Aug 17 2007, 02:41 PM']The reason we do not hear about those statements you quoted in the news is because they are all from 2003 But I assure you that at the time that they were current they were fairly well-publicized It is not even the first time I have seem them in a handy compilation! What is frustrating for Catholic military families is when the remarks from Cardinal Sodano, or from Mr. Navarro-Valls, or even from the Pope, are presented as proof that one cannot be a good Catholic and disagree, that "we can't support this war without contradicting our faith" as Shortnun put it.[/quote]

Well, I don't recall ever hearing any Church statements about the war, but I suppose that doesn't mean they weren't mentioned in the media. I'm definitely not in the position to say that a Catholic shouldn't fight in the Iraq war, but that is basically what my co-worker expects the Church should do. He sees the Church speaking out against abortion and the death penalty, but he doesn't understand why there isn't a definite decision about the war that all Catholics should be bound to. If virtually all bishops are saying this is an unjust war, what keeps this from becoming an official Church position?

[Maggyie]

[quote]If virtually all bishops are saying this is an unjust war, what keeps this from becoming an official Church position?[/quote]

Probably because virtually all the bishops say that a diversity of opinion is allowable on this issue. Like Archbishop Chaput says in the article I linked to, men and women of good will can disagree about the justness of particular wars. It is not something intrinsically evil, like abortion. The death penalty has much more grey area than abortion, but much less than individual wars; its justness has been addressed through a papal encyclical and the Catechism. There is no catechism passage or encyclical that specifically treats of this war or any recent conflict. It merely addresses just war theory in general terms. In applying this teaching, good Catholics can decide differently, which I have seen acknowledged by almost every bishop who has spoken about armed conflict, including then-Cardinal Ratzinger:

[i]3. Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia. For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.[/i]

[url="http://www.priestsforlife.org/magisterium/bishops/04-07ratzingerommunion.htm"][source][/url]

Edited August 20, 2007 by Maggie

[shortnun]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1360463' date='Aug 16 2007, 08:05 PM']I think it doesn't get more attention because, like the death penalty, it's one of those "liberal" issues that "conservatives" should be in agreement with, but because we tend to throw the baby out with the bathwater, we ignore some of these issues only because we might be tagged as a bleeding heart liberal. It's easier to just go along with the popular conservative agenda instead of following the Church, who doesn't fit either mold.[/quote]
Amen and amen.

[quote name='StColette' post='1360487' date='Aug 16 2007, 08:16 PM']Simple answer:

The Church has no official stance on the Iraq War.
The Holy Father however prays daily for peace in the middle east and has spoken out personally about his opinion of the war as well as John Paul II did before him.[/quote]
Okay, so the Church has no [i]official [/i]stance... but we have 2000+ years worth of an example of how to live. So I'm pretty sure we can reach an "answer" regarding this war.

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1361053' date='Aug 17 2007, 09:06 AM']Still, the main reason for this thread is to learn more about how the Church's moral teaching might be applied to the Iraq war. Has there been any bishop to speak favorably of the Iraqi invasion?[/quote]
Nope. I don't know about the Bishop for the Military Archdiocese. He may have...

[quote name='beatty07' post='1361136' date='Aug 17 2007, 12:15 PM']It's not commonly known that the government's idea of a "conscientious objector" includes only the individual who is opposed for religious reasons or by deep moral conviction to ANY war at ANY time. It does not apply, legally, to an individual who accepts the possibility of a just war but deems a particular war unjust. In other words, "conscientious objectors" are only total pacifists.[/quote]
That's interesting. I think I'll have to do a little bit more research into that. My dad was a C.O. to the war in Vietnam, but he's not opposed to ALL wars.

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1362600' date='Aug 19 2007, 02:04 AM']Well, I don't recall ever hearing any Church statements about the war, but I suppose that doesn't mean they weren't mentioned in the media. I'm definitely not in the position to say that a Catholic shouldn't fight in the Iraq war, but that is basically what my co-worker expects the Church should do. He sees the Church speaking out against abortion and the death penalty, but he doesn't understand why there isn't a definite decision about the war that all Catholics should be bound to. If virtually all bishops are saying this is an unjust war, what keeps this from becoming an official Church position?[/quote]
Well, perhaps I'd rather see the Church more vocal about the positions of just war, about WMD, about violation of human rights and international treaties [b]so as to help us form a good conscience[/b]. Just as I don't want the "Church" to tell me which candidates to support for president, or local politician, I don't want the "Church" to tell me how to think in terms of supporting war. HOWEVER, I do want to live and exercise my free will through a well-informed conscience. And that is the part in which I think the Church, IMHO, hasn't been as vocal as they otherwise could be.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='shortnun' post='1364321' date='Aug 20 2007, 01:39 PM']That's interesting. I think I'll have to do a little bit more research into that. My dad was a C.O. to the war in Vietnam, but he's not opposed to ALL wars.[/quote]

I found that interesting too, and on one hand, I see how an objective policy like that makes sense. If every soldier were allowed to decide whether a particular war is just or not, many might take advantage of that more subjective policy to avoid conflict. Also, the whole idea of being a soldier is that you follow orders instead of thinking about it first. Unfortunately, if you believe in just war, but don't believe this one is a just war, you don't seem to have much recourse.

[beatty07]

Here's a very good explanation. Though this memo is specific to the USMC, the principles would apply in any service. The point about opposition to war "in any form" is in par. b near the end of the first page.

[url="http://www.usmc.mil/directiv.nsf/0/d036f8e02111f8c185256776005c2854/$FILE/MCO%201306.16E.pdf"]http://www.usmc.mil/directiv.nsf/0/d036f8e...%201306.16E.pdf[/url]


And it definitely doesn't give much (any) recourse to an individual who believes in just war but cannot in conscience participate in a particular war or mission.

Edited August 23, 2007 by beatty07