Augustines 13th Sermon

[RJS]

Hi All.

I am in a debate with a protestant about Peter's Primacy, I have of course quoted all the early church fathers but he gave me this quote from Augustine's 13th sermon.

“Thou art Peter, and on this Rock – petra – which thou hast confessed,

on this rock which thou hast known, saying: ‘Thou art Christ, the Son

of the living God,’ I will build my church upon Myself, who am the Son

of the living God; I will build it on Me, and not Me on thee.”

The only place I can seem to find this is on websites that are trying to refute the papacy. I can't seem to find it in context. Can anyone give me any information or anything?

Thanks

[cmotherofpirl]

Have you seen these:

http://ewtn.com/library/THEOLOGY/527AUG1.HTM

http://ewtn.com/library/THEOLOGY/527AUG2.HTM

http://ewtn.com/library/THEOLOGY/CONFSDCD.HTM

http://ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/AUG2.TXT

[thicke]

Well, you can find the writings of Saint Augustine here. Just scroll down to him. Hope this helps.

[RJS]

Have you seen these:

http://ewtn.com/library/THEOLOGY/527AUG1.HTM

http://ewtn.com/library/THEOLOGY/527AUG2.HTM

http://ewtn.com/library/THEOLOGY/CONFSDCD.HTM

http://ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/AUG2.TXT

edit:

No I haven't but can't seem to find any reference to the 13th sermon.

Edited February 7, 2004 by RJS

[RJS]

Well, you can find the writings of Saint Augustine here. Just scroll down to him. Hope this helps.

Yeah, I have looked there but can't seem to find the sermon's or specifically the 13th sermon.

[thicke]

Here is a Google search for "13th sermon" and Augustine. the results are suprising.....

[cmotherofpirl]

I fond his sermons, but I couldn't find anything about Peter in it.

http://www.theworkofgod.org/Library/Sermons/Agustine.htm

Tell this guy you need a copy of the whole sermon or at least a location to read it online.

God is in the details.

[RJS]

Here is a Google search for "13th sermon" and Augustine. the results are suprising.....

Right. I have seen both of those, they both only quote that little section from his 13th sermon. That is why I am trying to find it in context.

[RJS]

Right. I have seen both of those, they both only quote that little section from his 13th sermon. That is why I am trying to find it in context.

Cool thanks!!!!

[cmotherofpirl]

Here is where the idea comes from:

http://www.geocities.com/trvalentine/orthodox/guettee05.html

[Aloysius]

just tell him augustines 14th sermon has in it somewhere "Peter and his successors are all popes and protestants are wrong."

:cool:

[phatcatholic]

RJS,

i found the reference that u are searching for. it is not in the 13th sermon, but instead in the 26th, or at least, this is how they are arranged by New Advent, where they provide 97 sermons that fall under the category "Sermons on Selected Lessons of the New Testament."

here is Sermon 26

likewise, here is the reference, taken directly from Sermon 26, which i believe is word-for-word the passage u were looking for:

Then said the Lord to Him, "Blessed art thou, Simon Barjonas: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but My Father which is in heaven." Then He added, "and I say unto thee." As if He had said, "Because thou hast said unto Me, 'Thou art the Christ the Son of the living God;' I also say unto thee, 'Thou art Peter.' " For before he was called Simon. Now this name of Peter was given him by the Lord, and that in a figure, that he should signify the Church. For seeing that Christ is the rock (Petra), Peter is the Christian people. For the rock (Petra) is the original name. Therefore Peter is so called from the rock; not the rock from Peter; as Christ is not called Christ from the Christian, but the Christian from Christ. "Therefore," he saith, "Thou art Peter; and upon this Rock" which thou hast confessed, upon this Rock which thou hast acknowledged, saying, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God, will I build My Church;" that is upon Myself, the Son of the living God, "will I build My Church." I will build thee upon Myself, not Myself upon thee.

here is my interpretation of this passage. w/ this, as w/ any quotation of the Fathers, it is essential to take their words in context. after reading the entire sermon i see the words of Augustine here not to mean that Peter is not the foremost apostle and the leader of Christ's Church on Earth, but that Peter could not be this or anything good were it not for Jesus Christ.

one has to remember that Peter is the Rock ONLY b/c Jesus is the Rock before him. i see that as what Agustine is affirming both here, and in his entire sermon. for example, Augustine also mentions Peter's walking on water, in which he could only b/c Jesus was and only in that time in which he kept his eye--or faith--on Jesus. but, as soon as he acknowledges his own accomplishment and is therefore swayed by the winds of temptation, he begins to fall. but, as he falls he cries out to the Lord--restores his faith in Him--and so he is saved from peril.

take this story, couple it w/ the fact that Augustine refers to Peter's name change only to strengthen the commentary he is making on the "walking on water" scene, and add in the interspersed lines in which Augustine refers to Peter as the "first and foremost apostle" and the "figure of the One Church," and i think u will find the meaning that i am arguing for here and the one that Augustine wishes to convey.

i hope this helps........pax christi,

phatcatholic

[Laudate_Dominum]

Hi All.

I am in a debate with a protestant about Peter's Primacy, I have of course quoted all the early church fathers but he gave me this quote from Augustine's 13th sermon.

“Thou art Peter, and on this Rock – petra – which thou hast confessed,

on this rock which thou hast known, saying: ‘Thou art Christ, the Son

of the living God,’ I will build my church upon Myself, who am the Son

of the living God; I will build it on Me, and not Me on thee.”

The only place I can seem to find this is on websites that are trying to refute the papacy. I can't seem to find it in context. Can anyone give me any information or anything?

Thanks

I recall a debate between a professional anti-catholic and a catholic apologist where the protestant busted out that exact quote and the catholic replied with at least a dozen quotes from Augustine giving the normal interpretation. He then quoted some major protestant scholars who said things like "if anyone denied that Augustine held that Peter was the Rock they are either ignorant or dishonest". It was a great debate.

[Laudate_Dominum]

Here are some quotes from Augustine that you can use:

"Number the bishops from the see of Peter itself. And in that order of Fathers see who succeeded whom, That is the rock against which the gates of hell do not prevail."

Psalmus contra partem Donati, 18 (A.D. 393),GCC 51

"Let us not listen to those who deny that the Church of God is able to forgive all sins. They are wretched indeed, because they do not recognize in Peter the rock and they refuse to believe that the keys of heaven, lost from their own hands, have been given to the Church."

Christian Combat, 31:33(A.D. 397), in JUR,3:51

"For if the lineal succession of bishops is to be taken into account, with how much more certainty and benefit to the Church do we reckon back till we reach Peter himself, to whom, as bearing in a figure the whole Church, the Lord said: 'Upon this rock will I build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it !' The successor of Peter was Linus, and his successors in unbroken continuity were these: -- Clement, Anacletus, Evaristus, Alexander, Sixtus, Telesphorus, Iginus, Anicetus, Pius, Soter, Eleutherius, Victor, Zephirinus, Calixtus, Urbanus, Pontianus, Antherus, Fabianus, Cornelius, Lucius, Stephanus, Xystus, Dionysius, Felix, Eutychianus, Gaius, Marcellinus, Marcellus, Eusebius, Miltiades, Sylvester, Marcus, Julius, Liberius, Damasus, and Siricius, whose successor is the present Bishop Anastasius. In this order of succession no Donatist bishop is found. But, reversing the natural course of things, the Donatists sent to Rome from Africa an ordained bishop, who, putting himself at the head of a few Africans in the great metropolis, gave some notoriety to the name of 'mountain men,' or Cutzupits, by which they were known."

To Generosus, Epistle 53:2(A.D. 400), in NPNF1,I:298

"When, therefore, He had said to His disciples, 'Will ye also go away?" Peter, that Rock, answered with the voice of all, "Lord, to whom shall we go? Thou hast the words of eternal life.' "

Homilies on John, Tract 11:5(A.D. 417), in NPNF1,VII:76

"And the Lord, to him to whom a little before He had said, 'Blessed thou art, and upon this Rock I will build my Church,' saith, 'Go back behind, Satan, an offence thou art to Me.' Why therefore 'Satan' is he, that a little before was 'blessed,' and a 'Rock' ?"

In Psalms, 56[55]:14[PL 36, 656] (A.D. 418),in NPNF1,VIII:223

"Peter, who had confessed Him as the Son of God, and in that confession had been called the rock upon which the Church should be built."

In Psalms, 69:4[PL 36, 869] (A.D. 418), in Butler, 251

"And if a Jew asks us why we do that, we sound from the rock, we say, This Peter did, this Paul did: from the midst of the rocks we give our voice. But that rock, Peter himself, that great mountain, when he prayed and saw that vision, was watered from above."

In Psalms, 104[103]:16(A.D. 418),in NPNF1,VIII:513

"[in my first book against Donatus] I mentioned somewhere with reference to the apostle Peter that 'the Church is founded upon him as upon a rock.' This meaning is also sung by many lips in the lines of blessed Ambrose, where, speaking of the domestic pickle, he says: 'When it crows, he, the rock of the Church, absolves from sin.' But I realize that I have since frequently explained the words of our Lord: 'Thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my church', to the effect that they should be understood as referring to him Peter confessed when he said: 'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God', and as meaning that Peter having been named after this rock, figured the person of the Church, which is built upon this rock and has received the keys of the kingdom of heaven. For what was said to him was not 'Thou art rock', but 'Thou art Peter'. But the rock was Christ, having confessed whom(even as the whole Church confesses) Simon was named Peter. Which of these interpretations is more likely to be correct, let the reader choose."

Retractations,1:21(A.D. 427),in GILES, 177

Augustine was not steadfast in his interpretation of Matthew 16:18. Above, Augustine equated the rock with Peter's faith, Peter's successors, and Peter himself. It was during his controversies with the Manicheans, Donatists, and Pelagians that he emphasized the role of Christ and identified "this rock" with Christ. In his dealings with the Manicheans, the nature of God was in the forefront; with the Donatist, it was the nature of the Church and clergy; with the Pelagians, it was the nature of grace and its originator, Jesus Christ. Augustine equated "this rock" with Christ not to downplay Peter's primacy, rather to emphasize Jesus Christ. Against all these heresies, Augustine stressed that the Church's foundation and grace rested upon a divine and not a human person. Nevertheless, Augustine remained steadfast in his understanding of Peter's primacy and the primacy of the Roman See. Augustine did not reject the Petrine interpretation, in favor of which he cites Ambrose's hymn, but leaves it to the reader to choose. Simon remains a rock, a secondary rock dependent on the Rock-Christ, for Augustine writes, 'Peter having been named after this rock '

(Retractations 1:21).

Edited February 8, 2004 by Laudate_Dominum

[Laudate_Dominum]

And here is some great stuff on the Papacy in the writings of the Fathers.

http://www.cin.org/users/jgallegos/papacy.htm