Pray To Allah, Dutch Bishop Suggests

[reyb]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1363121' date='Aug 19 2007, 04:48 PM']Muhammad is not a prophet because his "revelation" contradicts the revelation of God given in Christ. As I have already said, he denies explicitly -- in both the Qur'an and the Hadith -- that God would ever beget a Son, which clearly contradicts the teaching of the New Testament.

Muhammad is one of the great deceivers, who -- by his lies -- has caused millions of people to go astray.[/quote]

[indent]Regarding - 'that God would ever beget a Son, which clearly contradicts the teaching of the New Testament.' I will prepare another thread for this. Okay? [/indent]

[indent]and about this - 'Muhammad is one of the great deceivers, who -- by his lies -- has caused millions of people to go astray'. Do you think muslims today understand the Holy Quran the way Prophet Muhammad understood it ?[/indent]

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='reyb' post='1363960' date='Aug 19 2007, 09:47 PM'][indent]Regarding - 'that God would ever beget a Son, which clearly contradicts the teaching of the New Testament.' I will prepare another thread for this. Okay? [/indent][/quote]
There is no need for another thread. Here are a few examples (albeit not exhaustive) of what I am referring to:

[quote]O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not "Three" - Cease! (it is) better for you! - Allah is only One Allah. Far is it removed from His Transcendent Majesty that He should have a son. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is sufficient as Defender. [Qur'an 4:171][/quote]

[quote]They say: "Allah hath begotten a son!" - Glory be to Him! He is self-sufficient! His are all things in the heavens and on earth! No warrant have ye for this! say ye about Allah what ye know not? [Qur'an 10:68][/quote]

[quote]Further, that He may warn those (also) who say, "Allah hath begotten a son": No knowledge have they of such a thing, nor had their fathers. It is a grievous thing that issues from their mouths as a saying what they say is nothing but falsehood! [Qur'an 18:4-5][/quote]

[quote]It befitteth not (the Majesty of) Allah that He should take unto Himself a son. Glory be to Him! When He decreeth a thing, He saith unto it only: Be! and it is. [Qur'an 19:35][/quote]

[quote]They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!" Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous! At it the skies are ready to burst, the earth to split asunder, and the mountains to fall down in utter ruin, That they should invoke a son for (Allah) Most Gracious. For it is not consonant with the majesty of (Allah) Most Gracious that He should beget a son. [Qur'an 19:88-92][/quote]

[quote]No son did Allah beget, nor is there any god along with Him: (if there were many gods), behold, each god would have taken away what he had created, and some would have lorded it over others! Glory to Allah! (He is free) from the (sort of) things they attribute to Him! [Qur'an 23:91][/quote]

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='reyb' post='1363960' date='Aug 19 2007, 09:47 PM'][indent]and about this - 'Muhammad is one of the great deceivers, who -- by his lies -- has caused millions of people to go astray'. Do you think muslims today understand the Holy Quran the way Prophet Muhammad understood it ?[/indent][/quote]
The Qur'an and the Sunna understood according to the ijma of the Ulema is authoritative in the Islamic Umma, because it (i.e., the ijma) represents a living continuity with the teaching of Muhammad himself, who is its ultimate source.

[Apotheoun]

As a Christian I hold that Christ, the uncreated and eternal Logos, is the definitive public revelation of God, and that no new public revelation is necessary, or even possible, because God Himself in Christ has entered into the world as a man among men, revealing all that is necessary for salvation through His incarnation, life, passion, death, resurrection, and ascension into glory.

Thus, as I have said before, Muhammad is not a prophet, and Islam is a false religion, and to believe otherwise is to embrace the heresy of theological indifferentism.

[MichaelFilo]

Doesn't this fit well under the Vatican II spirit of eccumenicism? I mean we give up a non-essential (using English) to get closer to those we want to convert, Muslims. Of course, it's hard to understand the Bishop if you live here in the USA, because we don't have a high Muslim population.

I disagree with him simply due to the nature of Muslim expansionism, but I don't think it is an unreasonable request or one with any wishy-washy Catholicism intended.

[reyb]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1364076' date='Aug 20 2007, 07:06 AM']The Qur'an and the Sunna understood according to the ijma of the Ulema is authoritative in the Islamic Umma, because it (i.e., the ijma) represents a living continuity with the teaching of Muhammad himself, who is its ultimate source.[/quote]

[indent]Sunna is one of the basic sources of Islamic law, based on Muhammad's words and deeds as recorded in the Hadith. The Sunna complements and often explains the Koran. Therefore, I may say, it is an interpretation of Muslims to the Holy Quran.

Now, if they really understand the Holy Quran. why then these Muslims believe to their own interpretation that Jesus is just a prophet while Muhammad ‘accept’ that Jesus is the Christ of God? Please ask and tell them to look at Surah 4:156 -158.

[indent][color="#FF0000"]That they rejected Faith; that they uttered against Mary a grave false charge; That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:- Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;[/color]-[/indent]
About Jesus please look at Historical Jesus thread.

Again, I am not forcing you anything. [/indent]

Edited August 20, 2007 by reyb

[reyb]

[indent][color="#FF0000"]O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not "Three" - Cease! (it is) better for you! - Allah is only One Allah. Far is it removed from His Transcendent Majesty that He should have a son. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is sufficient as Defender[/color]. [Qur'an 4:171]

So, it is clear that Mohammad accept Jesus as Christ but do not accept the doctrine of the Holy Trinity.
About Son Of God, we need to define it first. What do you mean by that? And what do you understand when the writer of the Holy Scripture says for example in Heb 4:14[/indent]
[indent][color="#FF0000"]14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has gone through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God , let us hold firmly to the faith we profess[/color][/indent]

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='reyb' post='1364213' date='Aug 20 2007, 09:17 AM'][indent]Sunna is one of the basic sources of Islamic law, based on Muhammad's words and deeds as recorded in the Hadith. The Sunna complements and often explains the Koran. Therefore, I may say, it is an interpretation of Muslims to the Holy Quran.

Now, if they really understand the Holy Quran. why then these Muslims believe to their own interpretation that Jesus is just a prophet while Muhammad ‘accept’ that Jesus is the Christ of God? Please ask and tell them to look at Surah 4:156 -158.

[indent][color="#FF0000"]That they rejected Faith; that they uttered against Mary a grave false charge; That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:- Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;[/color]-[/indent]
About Jesus please look at Historical Jesus thread.

Again, I am not forcing you anything. [/indent][/quote]
I have no need of reading the "Historical Jesus" thread, because I have read many books over the course of my life dealing with that modern rationalist construct. The Christ of history and the Christ of faith are one and the same, and scholarship cannot prove otherwise, because faith and history intertwine in Christ, and reason alone cannot find the truth, but must be enlightened by God's own energy (grace) through the power of the Holy Spirit. In other words, when one deals with the events surrounding Christ's life, he is not dealing with something that happened in history only to be swallowed up into the past; no, he is dealing with historical events that transcend history, because the person involved in them (i.e., Christ) is [i]hypostatically [/i] eternal and uncreated. What Christ did is ever present -- ever existing -- within the divine memory, and that is why His incarnation, passion, death, resurrection, and ascension, are salvific. If Christ were a mere man, He could not save anyone, but He is the God-man, and as such He forms the bridge between the created and the uncreated, imparting the divine life to all those who are incorporated into His body the Church.

Now, as I have already shown in my posts, Muhammad explicitly contradicted the New Testament teaching on Christ, and in doing so he denied the divine faith supernaturally imparted to the Church. No argument founded simply upon created human reason can ever overcome the divine energies of the Holy Spirit, who vivifies the Church with the uncreated life and glory of the tri-hypostatic God.

Finally, I have no qualms in saying that the true faith is not found in anyone who denies that Christ is the Son of God, for "in Him all the fullness of Godhead was pleased to dwell" [Colossians 1:19]; and so, He is one in essence with the Father, for He was begotten by the Father from all eternity, and He is one in essence with the Holy Spirit, who proceeds ([i]ekporeusis[/i]) from the Father, and who rests upon the Son. This is the supernatural faith imparted to Christians by the power of the Holy Spirit, and anything else is a deception.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='reyb' post='1364213' date='Aug 20 2007, 09:17 AM'][indent]Sunna is one of the basic sources of Islamic law, based on Muhammad's words and deeds as recorded in the Hadith. The Sunna complements and often explains the Koran. Therefore, I may say, it is an interpretation of Muslims to the Holy Quran.

Now, if they really understand the Holy Quran. why then these Muslims believe to their own interpretation that Jesus is just a prophet while Muhammad ‘accept’ that Jesus is the Christ of God? Please ask and tell them to look at Surah 4:156 -158. [/indent][/quote]
Can you read? Because I have read the Qur'an, and I studied much of the [i]Sahih Al-Bukhari[/i] in college for my History degree, and Muhammad did not view the Messiah as divine (i.e., as the Son of God), but held that He (i.e., Christ) was merely a man, and that is the point of all the quotations that I have supplied.

Now, as far as your comments on the Sunna are concerned, the Sunna is not merely "an interpretation of Muslims [applied] to the Holy Quran"; instead, the Sunna -- according to Islamic theology -- includes the inspired actions and sayings of Muhammad (many of which are recorded in the Hadith collections; e.g., in the [i]Sahih Al-Bukhari[/i], the [i]Sahih Al-Muslim[/i], [i]Sunan Abu-Dawud[/i], and [i]Malik’s Muwatta[/i]) that are not always contained in the Qur'an. Thus, as Muslim jurist Asaf Fyzee points out, there are two forms of revelation in Islam, direct (i.e., the Qur'an) and indirect (i.e., the Hadith), and "together they constitute the stable foundation of Islamic law, and are jointly known as [i]nass[/i], a binding ordinance" [Asaf Fyzee, [u]Outlines of Muhammadan Law[/u], page 17]. In other words, the Sunna (and the Hadith by extension) are not interpretations applied to the Qur'an by the followers of Muhammad; instead, they are Muhammad's own interpretations of the Qur'an, through both his words and deeds.

God bless,
Todd

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='reyb' post='1364213' date='Aug 20 2007, 09:17 AM'][indent]Now, if they really understand the Holy Quran. why then these Muslims believe to their own interpretation that Jesus is just a prophet while Muhammad ‘accept’ that Jesus is the Christ of God? Please ask and tell them to look at Surah 4:156 -158.

[indent][color="#FF0000"]That they rejected Faith; that they uttered against Mary a grave false charge; That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:- Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;[/color]-[/indent]
About Jesus please look at Historical Jesus thread.

Again, I am not forcing you anything. [/indent][/quote]
This quotation nowhere indicates that Christ is the Son of God. Moreover, it denies explicitly that Christ was crucified, which -- together with His resurrection and ascension into glory -- is the cause of salvation; for as the Paschal prayer of the Byzantine litugry proclaims: "Christ is risen from the dead, by death He trampled death, and to those in the graves He granted life."

Unlike Muhammad, I say with St. Paul: "We preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles" [1 Cor. 1:23].

God bless,
Todd

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='reyb' post='1364256' date='Aug 20 2007, 09:39 AM'][indent][color="#FF0000"]O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not "Three" - Cease! (it is) better for you! - Allah is only One Allah. Far is it removed from His Transcendent Majesty that He should have a son. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is sufficient as Defender[/color]. [Qur'an 4:171]

So, it is clear that Mohammad accept Jesus as Christ but do not accept the doctrine of the Holy Trinity.
About Son Of God, we need to define it first. What do you mean by that? And what do you understand when the writer of the Holy Scripture says for example in Heb 4:14[/indent]
[indent][color="#FF0000"]14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has gone through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God , let us hold firmly to the faith we profess[/color][/indent][/quote]
I ask again, can you read? Saying that Jesus Christ is the Messiah, while simultaneously denying that He is the eternal Son of God is not enough, and even the quotation from scripture that you have supplied in your own post proves what I am saying to be true, while your own position is false: "Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has gone through the heavens, [b]Jesus the Son of God[/b], let us hold firmly to the faith we profess." Muslims hold that Jesus is nothing more than a mere man, a prophet of God, and this is not the faith proclaimed by the Church.

Finally, to deny the Trinity is to deny Christ, who is both Son of God and Son of Man, one in essence with His Father in divinity, and one in essence with mankind in His humanity, like us in all things but sin, who left the indwelling Holy Spirit to vivify His body the Church.

In your post you asked what the phrase "Son of God" means, but in order to answer that one must look at the teaching of the whole of the New Testament, for it proclaims that Christ is the Son of the Father; the Word of God, who in the beginning was with God and was God; He is also the power of God; and His Wisdom. Moreover, He is -- as St. Paul said -- "The Lord of Glory," for Christ Himself said that He was with His Father in glory before the foundation of the world. Now, to understand better what it is that Christ was saying it is necessary to look at a specific text, where He asserts His unity in divinity with the Father, because as Christ said: "I and My Father are one" [John 10:30]. Now lets look at this sentence: first, Christ as indicated to personal subjects, "I and My Father," and after doing this He says, "are one," and word for one in this text is in the neuter form indicating a unity of energy and essence. Clearly, the Father and the Son are two distinct persons, and -- of course -- Christ's constant prayers to His Father in heaven indicate this as well, but they are one in glory, a glory that they possessed together before the foundation of the world [See John 17:1-26].

The religion founded by the infidel Muhammad does not teach that Christ is the incarnate Logos, nor that He is the eternal and everliving Son of God, and -- as you have pointed out -- it denies explicit the revealed dogma of the Trinity; as a consequence, the religion of Muhammad is a great deception, because it leads people away from faith in Christ, the Son of God, and as scripture says, "No one who denies the Son has the Father. He who confesses the Son has the Father also" [1 John 2:23].

[reyb]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1364394' date='Aug 20 2007, 02:30 PM']I ask again, can you read? Saying that Jesus Christ is the Messiah, while simultaneously denying that He is the eternal Son of God is not enough, and even the quotation from scripture that you have supplied in your own post proves what I am saying to be true, while your own position is false: "Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has gone through the heavens, [b]Jesus the Son of God[/b], let us hold firmly to the faith we profess." Muslims hold that Jesus is nothing more than a mere man, a prophet of God, and this is not the faith proclaimed by the Church.

Finally, to deny the Trinity is to deny Christ, who is both Son of God and Son of Man, one in essence with His Father in divinity, and one in essence with mankind in His humanity, like us in all things but sin, who left the indwelling Holy Spirit to vivify His body the Church.

As Jesus said: "I and My Father are one" [John 10:30]. Now lets look at this sentence: first, Christ as indicated to personal subjects, "I and My Father," and after doing this He says, "are one," and word for one in this text is in the neuter form indicating a unity of energy and essence. Clearly, the Father and the Son are two distinct persons, and -- of course -- Christ's constant prayers to His Father in heaven indicate this as well, but they are one in glory, a glory that they possessed together before the foundation of the world [See John 17:1-26].

The religion founded by the infidel Muhammad does not teach that Christ is the incarnate Logos, nor that He is the eternal and everliving Son of God, and -- as you have pointed out -- it denies explicit the revealed dogma of the Trinity; as a consequence, the religion of Muhammad is a great deception, because it leads people away from faith in Christ, the Son of God, and as scripture says, "No one who denies the Son has the Father. He who confesses the Son has the Father also" [1 John 2:23].[/quote]

[indent]Of course, I hear you load and clear. But the question is 'what do you mean by Son of God? Now, about the Holy Trinity, Do you think Abraham believe in the Holy Trinity?[/indent]

[quote]Muslims hold that Jesus is nothing more than a mere man, a prophet of God, and this is not the faith proclaimed by the Church.[/quote]

[indent]This is the reason why I said in my previous post your suppose-to-be teachers of Holy Quran is wrong. Muhammad accept that Jesus is Christ while these teachers said Jesus is a prophet.[/indent]
[indent]Again, the question is 'what do you mean by Son of God'?[/indent]

Edited August 20, 2007 by reyb

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='reyb' post='1364403' date='Aug 20 2007, 12:41 PM'][indent]Of course, I hear you load and clear. But the question is 'what do you mean by Son of God? Now, about the Holy Trinity, Do you think Abraham believe in the Holy Trinity?[/indent][/quote]
Yes, I do believe that he had faith in the Trinity. The Eastern Churches have always taught that the Patriarchs and the Prophets had faith in the Triune God.

[reyb]

[quote]Now, as far as your comments on the Sunna are concerned, the Sunna is not merely "an interpretation of Muslims [applied] to the Holy Quran"; instead, the Sunna -- according to Islamic theology -- includes the inspired actions and sayings of Muhammad (many of which are recorded in the Hadith collections; e.g., in the Sahih Al-Bukhari, the Sahih Al-Muslim, Sunan Abu-Dawud, and Malik’s Muwatta) that are not always contained in the Qur'an.[/quote]

[indent]Of course, it is like a Sacred Tradition of Roman Catholic Church. (Please no offence, I am just saying what I feel). Time will come I will talk (just like this) to them and let us see what will happen. As I have said, if your conviction tells you that Prophet Muhammad is not a prophet - it is normal for a Catholic. But read the bible with an open eyes. Ok? Because if you really see the Truth and I hope with God's grace, you will understand why I said 'be careful'.[/indent]

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='reyb' post='1364403' date='Aug 20 2007, 12:41 PM'][indent]This is the reason why I said in my previous post your suppose-to-be teachers of Holy Quran is wrong. Muhammad accept that Jesus is Christ while these teachers said Jesus is a prophet.[/indent][/quote]
There is only one authoritative interpreter of the Qur'an from the Islamic perspective, and that interpreter is named Muhammad. That said, I do not accept your assertion that the Muslim community has somehow "misunderstood" what Muhammad taught. As I have said already, the true interpretation of the Qur'an is based upon the sources of Islamic revelation, both direct and indirect, and that you seem unfamiliar with this fact, indicates to me that you do not know what you are talking about when it comes to Islamic theology and jurisprudence.

[quote name='reyb' post='1364403' date='Aug 20 2007, 12:41 PM'][indent]Again, the question is 'what do you mean by Son of God'?[/indent][/quote]
Again I ask you, can you read? I have stated quite clearly in my previous posts what I believe about the divinity of Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, and I conform my views to both scripture and tradition as expressed through the teaching of the Church Fathers.

Christ is one in divinity with His Father according to His Godhead, and He is one in His humanity with us according to His manhood. Perfect God and perfect Man, subsisting in one divine person ([i]hypostasis[/i]).