Pray To Allah, Dutch Bishop Suggests

[Starets]

which american bishop no one likes

[curtins]

[quote name='puellapaschalis' post='1361282' date='Aug 17 2007, 05:37 PM']The man has a name, you know. There are more than a dozen bishops in this country; his name has the advantage of consisting of only one word that isn't even terribly hard to spell for English speakers.

Oh yea, how's things going with that American bishop no-one likes?[/quote]


I hope I'm just grossly misunderstanding you, but it seems like you're the one who is turning this into a USA vs Europe duel to the death to see whose bishops are holier.

You're the one who first brought it up and continue to pursue it.

[puellapaschalis]

[quote name='curtins' post='1361302' date='Aug 18 2007, 12:17 AM']I hope I'm just grossly misunderstanding you, but it seems like you're the one who is turning this into a USA vs Europe duel to the death to see whose bishops are holier.

You're the one who first brought it up and continue to pursue it.[/quote]

Oh, I freely admit to at least part of what you accuse me of here. I'll back it all up by pointing out that the seemingly anti-Europe (or pro-USA, whichever you prefer, although the choice implies a polarity which is inaccurate) sentiments on Phatmass are quite widespread. I'm just sick and tired of biting my fingers and not reacting.

But to clarify, my gripe is not about whether Dutch bishops are holier than American bishops. My gripe is about Americans on Phatmass assuming that the USA is holier than Europe. Never mind Thou.

[curtins]

Well, considering most of the pmers are Americans, I would say theres a healthy dose of what you call "pro USA sentiment", what I would call patriotism. However, that doesn't make us Anti-Europeans. I haven't seen any real anti-European sentiment. If your definition of anti-Europeanism is the pointing out that Europe is losing her Christian identity and becoming over-run with Islam, due to a variety of reasons, then I'd say you need to take a look around at your continent and at the reality of the situation. Even the Pope is talking about this problem.

[puellapaschalis]

Has anyone managed to recall 'the Dutch bishop's' name yet without scrolling back to a post in which it was mentioned? Reducing him, by not referring to him by his name, to a mere object is simply the camel-back-breaking straw here.

[curtins]

tiny.... whats the big deal?

[Paddington]

[puellapaschalis]

Not quite, but it's better than nothing. Now you've gotten that far, would you like to encourage your compatriots to do him the decency of actually using his (roep-) name?

[VeniteAdoremus]

Just because I saw the question and don't recall seeing the answer - "Tiny" is not a nickname and Mgr. Muskens is not particularly short. It's pronounced "Teenee" and his "calling name" - I can't remember the English term at two in the morning, but it's like being called Theodorus but everyone just says Ted, except for the tax services.

And to reply to various other things that came up in this topic:

I don't see my country being overrun by Muslims, really... but I do know that I need new glasses, so maybe it's me. I must admit that people predicting I and my Catholic friends, or our descendants, will convert to Islam as if they've had a letter from the future is [i]extremely hurtful[/i], as I hope you can understand. (If you can't, imagine someone give you a measuring look and saying "no, I don't really see you successfully passing on your religion, to be honest, what with a whopping 73% of the population NOT being registered as Catholic." While the 27% registered Catholics vary wildly in levels of observance, I'd like to note that it's not at all automatic or "normal" to be registered with a particular faith. Furthermore, the amount of young people in the church is growing. Catholicism in the Netherlands, as any Catholic here will agree, isn't going [i]anywhere[/i]. Except maybe upwards.)

That being said - if I manage to fail so deploringly at raising my possible future children that they will leave the Faith, I infinitely prefer Islam to atheism.

[jeffpugh]

Personally, being one of the few Canadian Catholics present, I can shake my fist at all the bishops. I think my bishop is pretty holy though. He's working a lot to bring young people back to the Church. It's fruitful, because my youth ministry has reached out to many. The only Muslim 'threat' is the one mosque that is up by my house. The building isn't very big, but it can deceive the numbers though. Whatever. If you wanna preserve the Catholic faith, here's what we can do. Pray the Divine Office in supplement to mass. Passing that on to the kids will be the best for them, so when Muslims try and witness to our kind about their 5 times a day prayer, we've already got that. They'll thank us later

[ruso]

That dutch bishop of whose name more bond to forget, is patient and has already named him bishop coassistant.

What God means designates itself with very different words, according to the idiom. But the word “Allah” is made unusable for this, because express it already a notion of God very precise and frankly different from the God de Jesus Christ. To use it would be totally ambiguous, as much for the Islam as for the Christianity.

The most important difference (there are others, also serious more) is in one subjects. It is the Trinity de people in a single and only God. The Islam does not profess this. And this aspect is deepest of the God that Jesus Christ revealed to us.

[ruso]

[quote name='curtins' post='1361365' date='Aug 18 2007, 01:41 AM']Well, considering most of the pmers are Americans, I would say theres a healthy dose of what you call "pro USA sentiment", what I would call patriotism. However, that doesn't make us Anti-Europeans. I haven't seen any real anti-European sentiment. If your definition of anti-Europeanism is the pointing out that Europe is losing her Christian identity and becoming over-run with Islam, due to a variety of reasons, then I'd say you need to take a look around at your continent and at the reality of the situation. Even the Pope is talking about this problem.[/quote]
The problem of Europe is not the conversions to the Islam, I even say to you that here the Muslims are but numerous who become Christians, who the other way around.
In Spain one calculates that half of the Muslim immigrants lets practice their religion, and the majotity of converts to the Islam come: Of the communist party and other seemed.

Edited August 18, 2007 by ruso

[reyb]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' post='1358859' date='Aug 14 2007, 07:13 PM']Or...English speaking Christians could keep calling him 'God', and Muslim speaking Christians could keep calling him 'Allah'?
What does the name that he is addressed as matter anyway? God, Lord, Yahweh, Abba, I'm pretty sure the big guy doesn't mind. After all, Christ told us, in

his prayer that he gave to us, to call him Abba, which in the contemporary Hebrew meant 'Daddy' or 'Papa'. I think this enforces that name isn't as important

as intent.
Pax Christi,
Mitch[/quote]

Correct.

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1359143' date='Aug 15 2007, 09:08 AM']The [url="http://www.catholicculture.org/commentary/blog.cfm?id=161"]Catholic culture blog[/url] has an interesting piece on this matter. Here is the part

that interests me the most:
After mulling it over, I agree with that. When I pray in Arabic I will continue to use 'Allah', 'Abbi', and 'Isa' - God, Father, and Jesus respectively.

Arabic is my first language and culturally I am an Arab. Muslims do not have a monopoly on Arabic and I'm not going to stop praying in my language, so I

don't have any trouble with using those words.

If I tried to bring them into my English prayer, it would feel odd. I wouldn't see the point. "In the name of al-Ab, al-Walad, and al-Ruhul Qudus" doesn't

exactly flow.[/quote]

Correct.

[quote name='White Knight' post='1359125' date='Aug 15 2007, 06:28 AM']The Most Blessed Holy Trinity as Allah?, sounds too outrageous, and compremizes our Foundational Truth. Never will anyone agree to this.[/quote]

Correct.

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1359207' date='Aug 15 2007, 12:14 PM']I do not have a problem with people who want to translate the English word "God" into the Arabic word "Allah." Language is after all a human creation. Now,

as far as the Bishop's proposal is concerned, I see no reason for a person who speaks English to suddenly replace English words with Arabic words in prayer.

Nevertheless, I deny -- as a matter of divine faith -- that Muslims worship the true God.[/quote]

Correct.

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1359215' date='Aug 15 2007, 12:24 PM']It is highly unlikely that a Muslim would ever refer to God as "Father" in prayer, because it is a tenet of the Islamic religion that God has no sons or

daughters.[/quote]

Correct.

[quote name='curtins' post='1359365' date='Aug 15 2007, 04:40 PM']Words have meaning- As people pointed out, Allah does not give any indication of a trinitarian nature. You're trying to argue nothing- we never said Arabic

Catholics cannot use Allah, but it should not be forced upon non arabic speaking Catholics.[/quote]

Correct.

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1360397' date='Aug 16 2007, 06:59 PM']The only reason to become Catholic is to be like Jesus.[/quote]

Okay. But, do you think you can attain it? And if ever, will you accept that you are like Jesus, the Christ?

[quote name='kujo' post='1361018' date='Aug 17 2007, 06:13 AM']As an American Catholic (who speaks only English fluently),
I do not speak Arabic, and, thus, will not be referring to God as "Allah," which, as I have been told, means "God" in that language. I will be refraining

from this practice, not because I am anti-Islamic or because I'm an "English-Only American Republican," but simply because I don't speak Arabic. Similarly,

because I don't speak Spanish, I will not be referring to God as "Dios." But, if there are Arab Christians/Catholics who want to use the word in their

prayers, I don't see what the big deal is. It's just simply a language thing.[/quote]

Correct.

[quote name='ruso' post='1361677' date='Aug 18 2007, 12:25 AM']What God means designates itself with very different words, according to the idiom. But the word “Allah” is made unusable for this, because express it

already a notion of God very precise and frankly different from the God de Jesus Christ. To use it would be totally ambiguous, as much for the Islam as for

the Christianity.

The most important difference (there are others, also serious more) is in one subjects. It is the Trinity de people in a single and only God. The Islam does

not profess this. And this aspect is deepest of the God that Jesus Christ revealed to us.[/quote]

Correct.

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1359075' date='Aug 15 2007, 01:17 AM']Mohammad is not a prophet; Islam is a false religion; and Muslims do not worship the true God.
Right (ortho) worship or glory (doxa) can only be given to the Father, through the Son, in the power of the Holy Spirit.[/quote]

Okay.
[indent]All of you are correct according to your own conviction. But, please be careful on this 'Muhammad is not a prophet'.

Just a reminder. It is written in 1 Cor 10:12

12 So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall[/indent]

Edited August 18, 2007 by reyb

[Akalyte]

i wouldnt pray to their moon god if they put a gun to my head.

[Anomaly]

So. Just asking.









Have many of you have placed an order for dUSt's "Respect your Bishop" shirt?


I'm not saying, just wondering....

Did cappie the Priest have any idea this is the sort of reaction most Catholics here would have?

Edited August 18, 2007 by Anomaly